# Interesting Article - PR, committed a crime and now getting deported



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

I saw this news article which may be of interest to some of you.

http://m.brisbanetimes.com.au/queen...n_code=nocode&promote_channel=social_facebook


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## Becky26 (Jun 18, 2013)

Mish said:


> I saw this news article which may be of interest to some of you.
> 
> 48 hours until D-Day: Brisbane man Ricardo Bolvaran faces deportation to Chile | brisbanetimes.com.au


This is what needs to be done to people who think once they get PR they can do anything. They don't think about their kids, family let alone the society. When they act recklessly without thinking of the consequences they may have to face, calling Australia home doesn't mean much when you are creating a harmful environment for not only its citizens but also for his own kids who might even grown up as addicts adding to the already out of control addiction situation in Australia.

As brutal as it sounds, you reap what you sow.
I'm happy to see DIBP take action on such people who say something and do the absolute opposite. If you call Australia home, treat it like home and look after it!


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

Exactly!! I have no sympathy whatsoever for them!


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

I totally disagree that people who have lived their entire lives in Australia can be deported, regardless of what crimes they have committed, just because they lack one piece of paper, a citizenship certificate. If he had become an Australian citizen, he could have committed far worse crimes, but would have been allowed to remain here. Where is the justice in that? And why burden other countries with criminals who are the product of our society. I think this legislation is way too inflexible.


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## Arabella (Sep 18, 2015)

CCMS said:


> I totally disagree that people who have lived their entire lives in Australia can be deported, regardless of what crimes they have committed, just because they lack one piece of paper, a citizenship certificate. If he had become an Australian citizen, he could have committed far worse crimes, but would have been allowed to remain here. Where is the justice in that? And why burden other countries with criminals who are the product of our society. I think this legislation is way too inflexible.


I agree. Ice seems to be a big problem here. I don't know whether it is or not in Chile but why should they have to deal with something that is a product of Australian society when he has never contributed there either positively or negatively? They will be burdened with looking after someone who has never contributed towards the Chilean system. At least here in Australia we can assume that he's probably worked at some point and therefore contributed. Or maybe his wife has.

Would he have been eligible for citizenship?


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

He would have been eligible for citizenship as a child or any time before he went off the rails. His wife and children are now also being punished for his crimes. Sending him to a country where he has never lived and where he doesn't speak the language is madness. This legislation is seriously flawed.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## Arabella (Sep 18, 2015)

CCMS said:


> He would have been eligible for citizenship as a child or any time before he went off the rails. His wife and children are now also being punished for his crimes. Sending him to a country where he has never lived and where he doesn't speak the language is madness. This legislation is seriously flawed.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Australia


Totally! If he'd come over here as an adult it'd be different, but like you say apart from a piece of paper he is Australian.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Let's say you had twin brothers who both migrated to Australia as children. One became an Australian citizen, the other one never bothered and remained PR. 

They commit a hideous crime together. One is deported, the other one is not. There is something wrong with this legislation. 

I think anyone who migrated to Australia when under 18 should be exempt from this. Anyone else should have access to a fair appeals process, especially when they have been rehabilitated during their imprisonment.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

Citizenship is more than a piece of paper, it is a commitment to the country you are choosing to live in.
If an adult decides not to take citizenship it's their choice. However I dont expect them bleat about it if they get kicked out because of their own criminal behaviour.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

aussiesteve said:


> Citizenship is more than a piece of paper, it is a commitment to the country you are choosing to live in.
> If an adult decides not to take citizenship it's their choice. However I dont expect them bleat about it if they get kicked out because of their own criminal behaviour.


There are many (often practical) reason why people do not become citizens. This often has to do with circumstances/laws in their home country.Others are simply not up to dealing with or aware of the process, especially those who have lived here since they were small children.

I believe that most Permanent Residents are just as committed to Australia as those who take out Citizenship.

Never mind. The law is what it is, but I believe it is seriously flawed and serves no real purpose in instances like this one.


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## Becky26 (Jun 18, 2013)

aussiesteve said:


> Citizenship is more than a piece of paper, it is a commitment to the country you are choosing to live in.
> If an adult decides not to take citizenship it's their choice. However I dont expect them bleat about it if they get kicked out because of their own criminal behaviour.


Couldn't agree more. What an adult chooses to do with their lives is their decision. But the result of those decisions is not in the individual's hands.
Australia has their own problems of addictions and criminals they have to deal with. 
There are many refugees with good character with families who are being bounced around because of the system, that isn't fair and kicking them out isn't right.

You commit a crime, prepared to face the consequences too. Shouldn't matter how old you were when you came to Australia. I'm sure the migration law clearly states that they will deport the person who is considered threat to the well being of their citizens.


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## Arabella (Sep 18, 2015)

Becky26 said:


> Couldn't agree more. What an adult chooses to do with their lives is their decision. But the result of those decisions is not in the individual hands.
> Australia has their own problems of addictions and criminals they have to deal with.
> There are many refugees with good character with families who are being bounced around because of the system.
> 
> You commit a crime, prepared to face the consequences too.


The point is, this man is Australian all but for a piece of paper. He grew up in Australia, went to school here, possibly worked here, went to jail here, was rehabilitated here, his children and wife are here and his ice problem was more than likely a product of Australian society.

Why should a country where he's never lived (apart from maybe a year of his life) be responsible for this man? Not even taking the man's family into consideration or anything that could make you feel sorry for him. Why should the Chilean government and taxpayers be responsible for someone who has never lived there, never worked there, has few ties to the country, doesn't even speak the language and who possibly wouldn't even have had an ice problem if he hadn't been in Australia?


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## Becky26 (Jun 18, 2013)

Arabella said:


> The point is, this man is Australian all but for a piece of paper. He grew up in Australia, went to school here, possibly worked here, went to jail here, was rehabilitated here, his children and wife are here and his ice problem was more than likely a product of Australian society.
> 
> Why should a country where he's never lived (apart from maybe a year of his life) be responsible for this man? Not even taking the man's family into consideration or anything that could make you feel sorry for him. Why should the Chilean government and taxpayers be responsible for someone who has never lived there, never worked there, has few ties to the country, doesn't even speak the language and who possibly wouldn't even have had an ice problem if he hadn't been in Australia?


This is what I think and I don't expect you or anyone to agree with this opinion. Since we are little, in high school or even growing up we are taught by our family and friends to "stay in school and don't do drugs" yet there is a drug problem in this world and youngsters are highly attracted to them regardless of what the outcome of doing them is.

Drugs have never been free in fact it is a very expensive recreational habit. It is a free market and people buy stuff they want to spend money on. They do drugs, they become addicts. The result of being caught with drugs is what the law seems fit. 
I do not want my kids that I may have in the future growing up around people who are doing drugs.

As for feeling sorry for the guy, he didn't think about loosing his family/kids when he was having the time of his life doing drugs so why should Australia show leniency and compromise with the safety of their own people and increasing drug use.


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## Arabella (Sep 18, 2015)

Becky26 said:


> This is what I think and I don't expect you or anyone to agree with this opinion. Since we are little, in high school or even growing up we are taught by our family and friends to "stay in school and don't do drugs" yet there is a drug problem in this world and youngsters are highly attracted to them regardless of what the outcome of doing them is.
> 
> Drugs have never been free in fact it is a very expensive recreational habit. It is a free market and people buy stuff they want to spend money on. They do drugs, they become addicts. The result of being caught with drugs is what the law seems fit.
> I do not want my kids that I may have in the future growing up around people who are doing drugs.
> ...


I get where you're coming from but I don't see why Chile should deal with this man as he just so happens to be their citizen by coincidence more than anything. He has had nothing to do with that country. The Australian government are just taking the easy way out. I can't imagine anyone in Chile is too impressed by this story. I'm not concerned with the welfare of this guy or his family, I just don't see why Chile should deal with him.

I don't want my kids to drugs, I have no interest in drugs but the nature of the beast is that it's more than likely Australian peer pressure that has lead to this situation. Sure, Australians are more than likely told not to do drugs in school but it doesn't change the fact that he probably did it because he was here.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

CCMS said:


> There are many (often practical) reason why people do not become citizens. This often has to do with circumstances/laws in their home country.Others are simply not up to dealing with or aware of the process, especially those who have lived here since they were small children.
> 
> I believe that most Permanent Residents are just as committed to Australia as those who take out Citizenship.
> 
> Never mind. The law is what it is, but I believe it is seriously flawed and serves no real purpose in instances like this one.


Maybe you have highlighted the problem when you mention "their home country" No one would deny them their birth right (and Australia allows dual Citizenship), but if they dont consider Australia is their home what are they doing here?


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

My issue is with the law itself, not with this particular person.

I respect your opinion, but since you quote the bible in your signature, it seems strangely at odds with what the new testament has to say about forgiveness, redemption etc. 

Personally I feel much more comfortable with the enlightened Scandinavian approach to criminal matters than the punishment- obsessed Anglo Saxon model. 

I can to a degree support the deportation of people who came here as adults of their own volition and who committed serious crimes. To deport people who came here as small children, in my view, is totally wrong under any circumstances.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## JandE (Jul 17, 2015)

September 23rd 2015

Queensland Public Interest Law Clearing House principal solicitor Karen Dyhrberg said Bolvaran's case was by no means unique.

Ms Dyhrberg said QPILCH had dealt with several similar cases.
"The majority of cases we're seeing involve people from New Zealand, which might not be seen as such a hardship," she said.
"But there are certainly a lot more cases involving people of varying degrees of criminal history, varying degrees of rehabilitation and varying degrees of family support back in the country they're being sent to."

Brisbane man, in Australia since the age of one, faces deportation to Chile


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

aussiesteve said:


> Maybe you have highlighted the problem when you mention "their home country" No one would deny them their birth right (and Australia allows dual Citizenship), but if they dont consider Australia is their home what are they doing here?


Let me re- phrase it by calling it "country of birth", Steve. I don't understand why "native" Aussies are so obsessed with this, especially not in today's global environment.

As it is I can live and work anywhere in Australia, NZ and the European Union. Australia is my home, but Holland will always be the country of my birth and I will always maintain strong ties to the place.

I don't know too many Aussies who would forsake their birthright when moving overseas. In fact I have met plenty who didn't even bother to learn the local language after many years as ex-pats.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## Arabella (Sep 18, 2015)

CCMS said:


> My issue is with the law itself, not with this particular person.
> 
> I respect your opinion, but since you quote the bible in your signature, it seems strangely at odds with what the new testament has to say about forgiveness, redemption etc.
> 
> ...


Totally agree with this!

My issue is with the law here too. To me, it doesn't make sense to deport someone to a country that they have not contributed to in any way.

And just because someone is not a citizen does not mean they don't view Australia as home, there could be a number of reasons why they don't have citizenship. Someone who came here at such a young age, and who has remained here for so long, should be treated as a citizen in this situation, paper or not.


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## Lunabelle (Oct 5, 2015)

Double post


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## Lunabelle (Oct 5, 2015)

For whatever reason, they chose to stay as a PR. Being a citizen, you pledge your allegiance to Australia, it's more than just paper.

From this time forward, I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people, whose democratic beliefs I share, whose rights and liberties I respect, and *whose laws I will uphold and obey*.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Lunabelle said:


> For whatever reason, they chose to stay as a PR. Being a citizen, you pledge your allegiance to Australia, it's more than just paper. From this time forward, I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people, whose democratic beliefs I share, whose rights and liberties I respect, and whose laws I will uphold and obey.


Permanent residents have to sign an Australian Values statement, which pretty much covers all of the above....

I really don't care much for all this nationalistic chest beating...no offence intended.

It is good to have this debate regardless.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## Becky26 (Jun 18, 2013)

CCMS said:


> My issue is with the law itself, not with this particular person.
> 
> I respect your opinion, but since you quote the bible in your signature, it seems strangely at odds with what the new testament has to say about forgiveness, redemption etc.
> 
> ...


Yes! I'm all for forgiveness and redemption but the law doesn't work that way. It is also written that decisions you make will and can have effects on not only your life but also the ones you love. Since you decided to bring my signature into this conversation. 
Drugs are a no in the bible so if you do something that is wrong, while you know that thing is wrong, prepare yourself for whatever the consequences of doing that thing would be. You have to work for forgiveness and redemption, it just doesn't get handed to you on a silver platter.

The law works on what is right and wrong and not the religion since Australia is a multicultural land.
There is no need for you to bring in my signature into this discussion or question my belief.

Also as already mentioned, if this guy was truly an Australian he should've become the Australian citizen a long time ago considering his age right now.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Becky26 said:


> Also as already mentioned, if this guy was truly an Australian he should've become the Australian citizen a long time ago considering his age right now.


I find this an extremely offensive statement.

I am not aware of the bible mentioning any drugs other than wine, but I am no expert.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## musti (Mar 19, 2014)

Lebanese-born Sydney father Fouad Arja facing deportation for unlicensed driving, held in Villawood Detention Centre
another story : Lebanese-born Sydney father Fouad Arja facing deportation for unlicensed driving, held in Villawood Detention Centre - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


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## Becky26 (Jun 18, 2013)

CCMS said:


> I find this an extremely offensive statement.
> 
> I am not aware of the bible mentioning any drugs other than wine, but I am no expert.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Australia


I did mention that my post was my opinion. You don't have to agree to it.
No alcohol or drugs fyi. Anything that can make you intoxicated or you would classify as under the influence.

There was no need for you to bring my signature into this conversation.
And why you're finding this offensive is what I don't understand. If I call a place home I will treat it like home and would not do anything to tarnish it for myself or my family.

Example: People who have overstayed their visa when posting to get advise here are told don't overstay your visa. Even though they know that overstaying the visa is not going to do any good or make things easier for them in the long run.
Cases like these make visa application difficult and the wait time forever long for me and many others here.
Meanwhile someone who has pleaded guilty for possession of substance is being fought for to stay in Australia. 
How is this fair?

Doesn't matter, this has become an argument that isn't going anywhere. 
Hope the law makes the decision that is best for Australia and its people, thats all that matters.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Your statement seem to imply that people who do not become Australian citizen somehow are not real Australians, whatever that means. I find that offensive, yes. 

You have chosen to quote the bible in your signature and it is on public display. I find your opinion strangely at odds with your professed beliefs. That's all. 

Let's just agree to disagree. I am just arguing a point of law, not any individual matters as such. Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## Becky26 (Jun 18, 2013)

CCMS said:


> Your statement seem to imply that people who do not become Australian citizen somehow are not real Australians, whatever that means. I find that offensive, yes.
> 
> You have chosen to quote the bible in your signature and it is on public display. I find your opinion strangely at odds with your professed beliefs. That's all.
> 
> Let's just agree to disagree. I am just arguing a point of law, not any individual matters as such. Sent from my iPhone using Australia


Yes I am well aware of what I have as my signature, no need for you to point it out and question my belief which you repeatedly keep doing and THAT is really offensive to me.
I never expected to agree with my opinion to begin with.

My own personal life, my friends and family, I have experienced that forgiveness doesn't come that easy as easy you'd think it would. You have to repent in order to get redemption. As I have already posted, it isn't going to be handed to you in a platter. 
What you do is your choice and decision but the results aren't unfortunately which is what I'm getting at.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

CCMS said:


> Let me re- phrase it by calling it "country of birth", Steve. I don't understand why "native" Aussies are so obsessed with this, especially not in today's global environment.


And I suppose you never will!
Like a lot of other Australians I dont belong to a single ethnic group and being born here have no attachment to any other nation.

"As it is I can live and work anywhere in Australia, NZ and the European Union. Australia is my home, but Holland will always be the country of my birth and I will always maintain strong ties to the place.:

No one is denying you that right, certainly not Australia, I dont know about the Netherlands.

"I don't know too many Aussies who would forsake their birthright when moving overseas. In fact I have met plenty who didn't even bother to learn the local language after many years as ex-pats."

Thats their choice, and if they were to be removed from their place of residence I would have no sympathy for them.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia[/QUOTE]


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## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

I'm usually pretty much in the "Too bad, so sad" camp but in this case it seems like a punishment that is significantly out of proportion with the crimes committed, and that Australia is deporting him because they can.

In this case, I hope DIBP pulls their head in and reconsiders their decision before he is put on a plane.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

Maggie-May24 said:


> I'm usually pretty much in the "Too bad, so sad" camp but in this case it seems like a punishment that is significantly out of proportion with the crimes committed, and that Australia is deporting him because they can.
> 
> In this case, I hope DIBP pulls their head in and reconsiders their decision before he is put on a plane.


Quite simple if you don't like the government's direction dissmiss it at the next election.


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## JandE (Jul 17, 2015)

aussiesteve said:


> Quite simple if you don't like the government's direction dissmiss it at the next election.


You need to choose to become an Australian citizen first to be able to vote a government in or out. (In most cases)

Some people choose not to become Australian so they can avoid voting, without penalty.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

aussiesteve said:


> Like a lot of other Australians I dont belong to a single ethnic group and being born here have no attachment to any other nation.


Exactly and that's the difference between locally born people and immigrants all over the world. So what's the fuss? I don't expect Aussies living outside Australia (and I believe over a million do) to lose their attachment to their country of birth.

But when someone moved here at a very young age and has grown up here, that connection to the country of birth does not exist, except in a legal sense.

That's my personal opinion and I have nothing more to say on the subject.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## YYC2BNE (Oct 23, 2015)

This guy has gone this long without bothering to get his citizenship. I'm sure it was plastered everywhere, the fact that this new legislation gave the power to deport criminals who did not hold Aussie citizenship. This individual continued his criminal activity despite that fact. Now he's sorry? 

I really can't see why he shouldn't be deported like everyone else.


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## waiting_is_happiness (Oct 3, 2013)

Quite interesting debate! The moral of this story is, prepare to face the consequences when you do bad things, and only do bad things if you are holding Aussie citizenship, otherwise you will be deported.


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## JandE (Jul 17, 2015)

Even once you become a citizen, you can still lose it and be deported in some circumstances.
So the real moral is: Don't do anything wrong and you may be OK.
Only those born here, and don't have a 2nd citizenship, are safe from deportation.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

JandE said:


> Even once you become a citizen, you can still lose it and be deported in some circumstances. So the real moral is: Don't do anything wrong and you may be OK. Only those born here, and don't have a 2nd citizenship, are safe from deportation.


Again it is not something I have a problem with in principle. I do have an issue with the process though, which leaves itself wide open to very unfair outcomes.

Maybe we should change the law so that the descendants of convicts can be deported back to the UK or Ireland if they break the law...

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

CCMS said:


> Again it is not something I have a problem with in principle. I do have an issue with the process though, which leaves itself wide open to very unfair outcomes.
> 
> Maybe we should change the law so that the descendants of convicts can be deported back to the UK or Ireland if they break the law...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Australia


If thats supposed to be some sort of insult i am afraid it will fall on deaf ears, there are quite a number of us who are the descendants of free settlers,and those who are the descendants of convicts consider it a badge of honour.


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## JandE (Jul 17, 2015)

CCMS said:


> Maybe we should change the law so that the descendants of convicts can be deported back to the UK or Ireland if they break the law...


So, if your great grandfather stole bread because he was starving, and got transported, you, as Australian born, should be deported if you commit a crime But any other nationality can personally commit crimes and you dont want them deported.

I have trouble with that anti British logic.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Absolutely no offence intended , AussieSteve. More an attempt at humour to highlight the absurdity of the situation. Of course the descendants of free settlers could be included for deportation as well. 

I moved here by choice and I live here because I love the place. Just because I wasn't born here doesn't mean I can't criticise policies I don't agree with. Lighten up, digger, this is a free country after all.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

JandE said:


> So, if your great grandfather stole bread because he was starving, and got transported, you, as Australian born, should be deported if you commit a crime But any other nationality can personally commit crimes and you dont want them deported. I have trouble with that anti British logic.


You clearly missed my point. Yes, it would be totally absurd. I don't have any anti British sentiment whatsoever. Not sure why you even bring that up.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

CCMS said:


> Absolutely no offence intended , AussieSteve. More an attempt at humour to highlight the absurdity of the situation. Of course the descendants of free settlers could be included for deportation as well.
> 
> I moved here by choice and I live here because I love the place. Just because I wasn't born here doesn't mean I can't criticise policies I don't agree with. Lighten up, digger, this is a free country after all.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Australia


What's absurd about deporting criminals?
May i suggest you also brush up on your Aussie slang, a "digger" is not a member of the general public but a returned service person, the very people who fought and died to keep this country free. 
Coming to a country and then complaining about it is like buying a cheap house near a railway line then complaining about the noise from the trains!


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## Aussie83 (Oct 15, 2015)

Sadly Nick obvious jokes are lost on people


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Aussie83 said:


> Sadly Nick obvious jokes are lost on people


Yes, unfortunately it is now descending into the level of certain talkback shows.

I have been here long enough to know what is what and I personally know plenty of "real Australians" who agree with me on this. I recently attended a conference in Perth where this very issue was discussed by some of the brightest people in this country, all "real Australians".

The notion that only people who are born in this country are allowed to have an opinion is too absurd to even respond to.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

CCMS said:


> Yes, unfortunately it is now descending into the level of certain talkback shows.
> 
> I have been here long enough to know what is what and I personally know plenty of "real Australians" who agree with me on this. I recently attended a conference in Perth where this very issue was discussed by some of the brightest people in this country, all "real Australians".
> 
> The notion that only people who are born in this country are allowed to have an opinion is too absurd to even respond to.


So I presume I am not a "real Australian"


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

aussiesteve said:


> May i suggest you also brush up on your Aussie slang, a "digger" is not a member of the general public but a returned service person, the very people who fought and died to keep this country free.


Thanks for the lecture AussieSteve. I worked on building sites around Australia where the term was widely used by real true blue Aussies and not a returned soldier in sight.

I have the greatest respect for Australian soldiers as I have for the soldiers in many other countries who fought and died in the name of freedom.

That's not what this is about.It is about a law which I believe is unfair and has unintended consequences for some.

We'll never agree on this, so let's just agree to disagree and be respectful of each other's views.

In your eyes there are obviously 2 kind of Aussies; those who are born here and those that are not.You're welcome to that view. It doesn't particularly bother me and it won't stop me from expressing my views.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## Aussie83 (Oct 15, 2015)

To me i find it more, we used to be a country that prided ourselves on not being politically incorrect, and while yes that may of needed to of been toned down we have gone the far opposite way of becoming overly sensitive to everything.
next we'll sue a coffee shop as they didn't have a warning on the lid of the coffee telling us the hot beverage we ordered was hot.....


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

CCMS said:


> Yes, unfortunately it is now descending into the level of certain talkback shows.
> 
> I have been here long enough to know what is what and I personally know plenty of "real Australians" who agree with me on this. I recently attended a conference in Perth where this very issue was discussed by some of the brightest people in this country, all "real Australians".
> 
> The notion that only people who are born in this country are allowed to have an opinion is too absurd even respond to.


If i valued your opinion I might have consider myself insulted!


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## forumlurker (Mar 23, 2015)

I tend to agree with Nick, partly due to what I've seen in my personal life. I wasn't a citizen by birth in the country I was born and raised in either and I had no idea how to live my country of "citizenship by descent" should I ever had to.

And I've seen more than enough examples of people who aren't from many circumstances that are at times not within their control:
(Example: Children born to unmarried stateless mother and citizen fathers are not entitled to citizenship by birth in Singapore)
Poor state of stateless children, Singapore News & Top Stories - The Straits Times

or had no idea they were different from the rest of the kids until they were trouble, 
(Cambodian refugee kids deported after decades in the USA)
Cambodian refugees deported after decades in US - Al Jazeera English

sometimes they have sympathetic reasons..:
(Example: US veteran with PTSD who did not know he wasn't a citizen):
From U.S. soldier to deported and stateless

Or may be deported just because:
(Example: Toddler kids of New Zealand citizen by descent to be deported to Samoa from Australia because they are not entitled to NZ citizenship)
Young kids to be deported in crackdown | Radio New Zealand News

Sometimes, I think you need to look beyond the Citizenship Certificate when determining if someone is Australian. If both a citizen and a PR are subject to the same punishment, you might have to ask yourself a PR and their Australian family members deserves to be further punished because of a citizenship they do not hold (sometimes in circumstances out of their control).


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## JandE (Jul 17, 2015)

CCMS said:


> You clearly missed my point. Yes, it would be totally absurd. I don't have any anti British sentiment whatsoever. Not sure why you even bring that up.


Your point was


CCMS said:


> Maybe we should change the law so that the descendants of convicts can be deported back to the UK or Ireland if they break the law


But you dont want a foreign born non citizen deported.

Why do you feel it is ok to deport Australian born citizens who are descendents of British born grandparents who had been transported 200 years ago?

You brought this into the conversation.


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## JandE (Jul 17, 2015)

forumlurker said:


> I tend to agree with Nick, partly due to what I've seen in my personal life. I wasn't a citizen by birth in the country I was born and raised in either and I had no idea how to live my country of "citizenship by descent" should I ever had to.


But, have you chosen to become an Australian or do you choose to stay non Australian?

And thats what it comes down to. Each individuals choice to be Australian or not.


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## Aussie83 (Oct 15, 2015)

Aussie steve, i know people older than myself (32) that were born and raised Australia use digger when it should be cobber.

JandE, it is called dry humour. he doesn't really mean it, just saying if that is the attitude to have many born and raised Australians would have to be deported despite having no ties to the country they are being deported to.


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## Lunabelle (Oct 5, 2015)

Thanks Aussie83 for the explanation, but I still don't get the joke. They are Australian citizens, not Brits with Australian residence visa?


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## forumlurker (Mar 23, 2015)

JandE said:


> But, have you chosen to become an Australian or do you choose to stay non Australian?
> 
> And thats what it comes down to. Each individuals choice to be Australian or not.


It isn't a choice if you had no idea. (read the veteran's article in my last post). For some, it's an option not open to them. Eg. Kids from NZ citizen families. There are lots of examples outside of Australia where citizenship pathways are not open to long term residents.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

Aussie83 said:


> Aussie steve, i know people older than myself (32) that were born and raised Australia use digger when it should be cobber.
> 
> JandE, it is called dry humour. he doesn't really mean it, just saying if that is the attitude to have many born and raised Australians would have to be deported despite having no ties to the country they are being deported to.


Well I am 62 and born here and haven't heard the term "cobber" anywhere other than a tv show or movie, since my grandfather ( who was born in1890) died 40 years ago. As far as "digger" goes have never heard it used other than in reference to soldiers. The most common term I am familiar with is "Mate" which is used frequently here in Queensland. It may now be different in other parts of Australia, but it never used to be.


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## Aussie83 (Oct 15, 2015)

Lunabelle - have you ever lived in a drought situation and made jokes of it?
have you ever been in hard times and made a joke about your situation?
this is the same situation, its not funny. yes it is serious that is why a absurd joke is made to highlight the fact. and of course what Nick said was Absurd, therein lies the point.
I admit, it could be more of a rural thing, (basing that statement on my experience) but growing up in a rural environment i've found many fatalistic humour is missed on people who grew up in metro areas


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## Aussie83 (Oct 15, 2015)

AussieSteve, fair enough, as i'm sure your aware different areas use different parts of the lexicon.
I even know people who dont know what they are doing when they talk on the dog and bone to their old china plate about their one turtle dove and then have a dad and dave.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

aussiesteve said:


> Well I am 62 and born here and haven't heard the term "cobber" anywhere other than a tv show or movie, since my grandfather ( who was born in1890) died 40 years ago. As far as "digger" goes have never heard it used other than in reference to soldiers. The most common term I am familiar with is "Mate" which is used frequently here in Queensland. It may now be different in other parts of Australia, but it never used to be.


I have spent over 30 years in Australia and have heard the words cobber, digger and mate used widely in many situations. I am an immigrant who came here with very little, I have done ok for myself and I am proud of it. My wife's uncle, also an immigrant, fought in Vietnam and I will not be lectured to by anyone because I have a different opinion. If you don't like it, bad luck !

I am quite well informed on the topic on hand because of my professional connections and I urge anyone interested in the subject to read up on it.

Having a debate on it is very useful. Let's just keep it pleasant and refrain from us vs. them personal attacks.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

Aussie83 said:


> AussieSteve, fair enough, as i'm sure your aware different areas use different parts of the lexicon.
> I even know people who dont know what they are doing when they talk on the dog and bone to their old china plate about their one turtle dove and then have a dad and dave.


Aussie83 I am sure there would not be too many left who would understand the old rhyming slang. Not familiar with turtle dove but remember going to the Sydney Harbour for a Dad and Dave, and in those days you didn't need to much arthur ash in your sky rocket!


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## Aussie83 (Oct 15, 2015)

aussiesteve said:


> Aussie83 I am sure there would not be too many left who would understand the old rhyming slang. Not familiar with turtle dove but remember going to the Sydney Harbour for a Dad and Dave, and in those days you didn't need to much arthur ash in your sky rocket!


the turtle dove is what everyone here is all about, true love 
and at Sydney harbour it all would of been gone after the first shout!
but thats all I meant. where I was originally from I learnt it. now where I am people 20 years older think I make it up, all born and raised here by people born and raised here. just depends where as to how it is used. (really messed them up when we did a managment course and I carried on in the formal BS mode! they were wondering what happened to the hick)


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

CCMS said:


> I have spent over 30 years in Australia and have heard the words cobber, digger and mate used widely in many situations. I am an immigrant who came here with very little, I have done ok for myself and I am proud of it. My wife's uncle, also an immigrant, fought in Vietnam and I will not be lectured to by anyone because I have a different opinion. If you don't like it, bad luck !
> 
> I am quite well informed on the topic on hand because of my professional connections and I urge anyone interested in the subject to read up on it.
> 
> ...


I was stating my experince with the use of the term digger amongst older Australians, if yours is different so be it ! I too will not be lectured and be told I am not a real Australian! Just because i feel it is right to deport criminals.
By the way what has your wife's uncle got to do with the argument? I thank him for his service, but dont see any relevance. I never mentioned my own families service and sacrifice in an attempt to bolster my standing.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

JandE said:


> Your point was But you dont want a foreign born non citizen deported. Why do you feel it is ok to deport Australian born citizens who are descendents of British born grandparents who had been transported 200 years ago? You brought this into the conversation.


Apologies if my attempt at humour went over your head. You also took my comment completely out of context, so there's no point continuing that particular path.

I'm not interested in massaging wounded British pride. That's what not this about. When I grew up in the Netherlands, we were very close to the British. I have never ever heard them described in derogatory terms until I came to Australia. That sentiment simply did not exist in Europe, so I really don't know what you're on about. Is it ok to be called a whinging Pom, but not ok to make a harmless joke about convicts ?

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

aussiesteve said:


> I was stating my experince with the use of the term digger amongst older Australians, if yours is different so be it ! I too will not be lectured and be told I am not a real Australian! Just because i feel it is right to deport criminals. By the way what has your wife's uncle got to do with the argument? I thank him for his service, but dont see any relevance. I never mentioned my own familie's service and sacrifice in an attempt to bolster my standing.


I am only a few years younger than you, Steve. We obviously moved in different circles. I don't feel the need to bolster my standing and I don't have to justify myself to you, but my wife's uncle was a digger, so there's your relevance.

Back to the topic at hand. I don't oppose the deportation of criminals in principle, but I think consideration should be given to those who came here at a very young age and who have no ties to their country of birth.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

CCMS said:


> I am only a few years younger than you, Steve. We obviously moved in different circles. I don't feel the need to bolster my standing and I don't have to justify myself to you, but my wife's uncle was a digger, so there's your relevance.
> 
> Back to the topic at hand. I don't oppose the deportation of criminals in principle, but I think consideration should be given to those who came here at a very young age and who have no ties to their country of birth.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Australia


Obviously we are diametrically opposed and as I mentioned before i cant understand why people would not take up the citizenship of a country they had spent their whole life in.
Just in case you think i am some rabid nationalist I should explain I am married to an immigrant who became an Australian citizen at the earliest opportunity and by doing so was stripped of her citizenship by the country of her birth. 20 years later a change to legislation allowed her to regain her Citizenship and as our children were then under 18 they were included in her petition. Asa result they also hold dual nationality.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Steve, I never for a second thought you were a rabid nationalist. If I did I wouldn't even talk to you. I don't take anything in this personal. I think it is called robust debate. 

People may have all sort of valid business and personal reasons for not wanting to lose the nationality ( and passport) of their country of birth by taking out Australian citizenship, especially in today's globalised environment. Most of them would do so in a flash if they could have dual nationality. 

In many other cases people are simply not aware of it or don't have the wherewithal to deal with the paperwork. 

I get plenty of inquiries from Kiwis on sc. 444 visas who are shocked to find out that they and their children (often born here) are not permanent residents. They simply assumed they were. Likewise many permanent residents who have been here from a young age really have no idea about any of this. 

I know many Aussies who are totally confused about the different levels of government and confuse state, federal and local government issues. I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but just as an illustration that a lot of people are fairly clueless about lots of things. I have employed plenty of very capable people over the years, who had great difficulty with any sort of official forms and would know absolutely nothing about citizenship requirements, even though they were born here. 

Many of these criminals we are talking about come from dysfunctional or broken families. If they got into trouble at a young age, they may already have blown their chances of becoming an Australian citizen, because of the stricter character requirements. 

I think there is a basic unfairness in this. Hence my objection to a blanket rule.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

Nick, I love a robust debate!
My view is if you have the privilege of living permanently in a country you should take up citizenship if it is made available. To me your mention of people ( assuming they are eligible)having a valid reason not to take citizenship for business or personal reasons indicate a lack of commitment to Australia. Mind you I beleive an Australian who permanently moves to another country should do likewise.
As far as younger people go i agree some are naive however surely they must be aware of their status when they go for a job or try and enrol to vote.
Maybe your exceptionally tolerant view comes from your upbringing, I have a number of Dutch friends who always find the best in everyone. On the other hand my predominantly Scandinavian / German background seems to have left me with a very black and white outlook on life!


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Steve, I respect your views and you may well be right about the reasons for my more tolerant outlook. Having lived in Scandinavia for some years, I believe my views would have been widely shared there as well,but I get your point about the Scandinavian/German mindset. Mind you, Germany currently seems to have a much more tolerant attitude towards migrants/ refugees than many of its neighbours, Holland included. 

I strongly disagree with you that not taking out Australian citizenship indicates a lack of commitment to Australia. It is far more complex than that. It would be interesting to know how many UK citizens would have become Australian citizens, if it meant that they would have lost their UK citizenship. 

My view remains that anyone who came to Australia as a minor should be exempt from deportation, because they have been absorbed into Australian society as children. There could be many reason why they had not become Australian citizens while they could, mainly to do with ignorance or lack of practical resources.

I would like to see how your average Aussie ( and again I am not meaning this in any derogatory way) would cope with the complicated practicalities of the immigration/ citizenship process, including the IELTS and citizenship tests.

Anyway, the law is what it is, and unless you have very deep pockets or good connections you won't be able to fight it.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## Arabella (Sep 18, 2015)

CCMS said:


> I strongly disagree with you that not taking out Australian citizenship indicates a lack of commitment to Australia. It is far more complex than that. It would be interesting to know how many UK citizens would have become Australian citizens, if it meant that they would have lost their UK citizenship.


Although I am nowhere near being able to apply for citizenship, I would have serious reservations about giving up my British passport, despite the fact that if my partner wanted us to stay here forever then I would and I would be committed to Australia and treat it as my own.

There is no better passport (for travelling purposes) than a British passport. You'd be mad to voluntarily give that up! And if for some unknown reason we ever did want to go back to the UK it would make it a lot harder. Although the financial restrictions that are currently in place make it hard enough as it is.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

Funny you should mention the UK Nick, I beleive they are one of the least likely groups to take up Australian Citizenship! 
Yes Germany now seems very liberal ..maybe all the hardliners came here at the end of the 19th century


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## Arabella (Sep 18, 2015)

aussiesteve said:


> Funny you should mention the UK Nick, I beleive they are one of the least likely groups to take up Australian Citizenship!
> Yes Germany now seems very liberal ..maybe all the hardliners came here at the end of the 19th century


I guess that's because we don't feel we need to? If you're from a country that you know 100% you'd never want to go back to then it's different. I guess being native English speakers as well we don't need to "prove" how good our English is. I'm just speculating though.

I'm aiming for citizenship personally. But I would never get rid of my UK citizenship.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

aussiesteve said:


> Funny you should mention the UK Nick, I beleive they are one of the least likely groups to take up Australian Citizenship! Yes Germany now seems very liberal ..maybe all the hardliners came here at the end of the 19th century


And all the Dutch hardliners went to South Africa! Last time I saw some statistics , the largest group of overstayers were from the UK and the USA, which doesn't seem to bother people greatly.

A lot of the debate on illegal immigrants and citizenship issues is based on emotion rather than facts.


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## Arabella (Sep 18, 2015)

CCMS said:


> A lot of the debate on illegal immigrants and citizenship issues is based on emotion rather than facts.


So true! And possibly a lack of education about certain religions...


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Arabella said:


> There is no better passport (for travelling purposes) than a British passport. You'd be mad to voluntarily give that up! And if for some unknown reason we ever did want to go back to the UK it would make it a lot harder. Although the financial restrictions that are currently in place make it hard enough as it is.


My point exactly, Arabella. This is an important issue for many immigrants and, in my view, this does not indicate a lack of commitment to Australia. But I understand that it may be hard for someone born in Australia to see it this way.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## Arabella (Sep 18, 2015)

CCMS said:


> My point exactly, Arabella. This is an important issue for many immigrants and, in my view, this does not indicate a lack of commitment to Australia. But I understand that it may be hard for someone born in Australia to see it this way.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Australia


I think people underestimate the difficulties of getting a citizenship. I've taken online UK citizenship tests (not real ones) and I can't remember if I passed and I've lived there for 24 years out of the 29 I've been on this planet! Even then I regularly read British news and watch British shows.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Arabella said:


> I think people underestimate the difficulties of getting a citizenship. I've taken online UK citizenship tests (not real ones) and I can't remember if I passed and I've lived there for 24 years out of the 29 I've been on this planet! Even then I regularly read British news and watch British shows.


That is the point I tried to make about permanent residents who came here as young children. Many could be unaware of their status and the potential implications or simply incapable of going through the process for a variety of reasons.

I know plenty of perfectly capable born and bred Aussies who have difficulties with all sort of formal processes.

If the children's parents have not taken care of the citizenship process at some stage, it is quite likely that many of them will never do it on their own initiative.

I would apply a different standard to those who migrated here as adults with a full understanding of all that is involved.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## Arabella (Sep 18, 2015)

Unfortunately, the world only seems to be making things like this more difficult for us whereas they're perfectly willing to sign free trade agreements like the TPP. Doesn't seem to make sense!


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## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

I will admit that I'm taking on Australian citizenship mainly for the ease of ongoing travel rights, Centrelink benefits if I ever needed them, and eventually likely will retire to NZ which isn't easily possible on my Canadian passport.

If dual citizenship with Canada wasn't possible, I wouldn't consider taking Australian citizenship. Once my citizenship is complete, I will consider myself a citizen of Australia but I will BE Canadian.


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## Arabella (Sep 18, 2015)

Maggie-May24 said:


> I will admit that I'm taking on Australian citizenship mainly for the ease of ongoing travel rights, Centrelink benefits if I ever needed them, and eventually likely will retire to NZ which isn't easily possible on my Canadian passport.
> 
> If dual citizenship with Canada wasn't possible, I wouldn't consider taking Australian citizenship. Once my citizenship is complete, I will consider myself a citizen of Australia but I will BE Canadian.


Ditto! Apart from maybe retiring to NZ...


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

Maggie-May24 said:


> I will admit that I'm taking on Australian citizenship mainly for the ease of ongoing travel rights, Centrelink benefits if I ever needed them, and eventually likely will retire to NZ which isn't easily possible on my Canadian passport.
> 
> If dual citizenship with Canada wasn't possible, I wouldn't consider taking Australian citizenship. Once my citizenship is complete, I will consider myself a citizen of Australia but I will BE Canadian.


Same for my husband. Once he is eligible he will applying for citizenship for the ease of travelling through Europe. As he is from a high risk country he needs to apply for visa's to alot of places. Europe is a pain in the arse because alot of the embassies are not in Brisbane and he needs to travel to Sydney to lodge in person and do finger prints *sigh*


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Glad to see that so many share my view on the dual citizenship/ passport issues. Maybe it is hard to understand for someone who was born here. It has nothing to do with ( lack of) loyalty to Australia.As an immigrant you will always belong to more than one country.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

It's interesting reading current ideas on Citizenship. I suppose i am heavily influenced by my past. Growing up in Melbourne in the early 50's a large proportion of my class mates were what we called then "New Australians" my best friends were Greeks, Italians, Poles etc. Whose family had left war torn Europe for a new start in a new country. 
I can remember them beaming with pride when showing me their newley aquired Australian Citizenship Certificates. Their parents were so pleased they could vote, something we take for granted.
Also the welfare state hardly existed then so becoming a citizen just to get the dole and 5 shillings a week child endownment wasn't really much of an attraction.
The Snowy River Scheme energised the country and JFK's inaugural speech with the exhortation "Ask not what your country can do for you but rather what can you do for your country" rang as true in Australia as the USA.
The only group who weren't keen to take up Citizenship were the British because they didn't have to! Of course that later changed.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

CCMS said:


> Glad to see that so many share my view on the dual citizenship/ passport issues. Maybe it is hard to understand for someone who was born here. It has nothing to do with ( lack of) loyalty to Australia.As an immigrant you will always belong to more than one country.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Australia


Yes Nick its as hard for me to understand your position as it is for you to understand mine.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Steve, I believe it could easily be resolved over a couple of beers. If you ever come to Cairns, give me a tingle and I shout you one!

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

CCMS said:


> Steve, I believe it could easily be resolved over a couple of beers. If you ever come to Cairns, give me a tingle and I shout you one!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Australia


I'll take you up on that Nick!!


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

aussiesteve said:


> I'll take you up on that Nick!!


I'm counting on it ! We can solve all the world's problems together.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## Arabella (Sep 18, 2015)

CCMS said:


> Glad to see that so many share my view on the dual citizenship/ passport issues. Maybe it is hard to understand for someone who was born here. It has nothing to do with ( lack of) loyalty to Australia.As an immigrant you will always belong to more than one country.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Australia


I currently feel like I belong to about three countries! I will always be British, but Spain holds a very special place in my heart having lived there for three years and now Australia


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Arabella said:


> I currently feel like I belong to about three countries! I will always be British, but Spain holds a very special place in my heart having lived there for three years and now Australia


Why limit yourself to one country indeed? The world is our oyster. I was born in Holland, my wife is Norwegian and I live in Australia. Therefore I have very close ties to three countries.

I have family in Australia, but also in France, Spain, Holland, Norway, Indonesia, Brazil, Canada and the USA.

Although I call Australia home, I consider myself a citizen of the world.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## Arabella (Sep 18, 2015)

CCMS said:


> Why limit yourself to one country indeed? The world is our oyster. I was born in Holland, my wife is Norwegian and I live in Australia. Therefore I have very close ties to three countries.
> 
> I have family in Australia, but also in France, Spain, Holland, Norway, Indonesia, Brazil, Canada and the USA.
> 
> ...


We are a privileged few, those of us who are able to travel. We should be grateful


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## PurpleMonkeyDishwasher (Dec 14, 2014)

CCMS said:


> Why limit yourself to one country indeed? The world is our oyster. I was born in Holland, my wife is Norwegian and I live in Australia. Therefore I have very close ties to three countries.


I can identify with that.

I am a Kiwi, and taking up Australian citizenship as well next year.

My wife is Filipino, and will take up Australian citizenship when she is able.

Our kids (when we have them) will hopefully have NZ, Australian and Philippines citizenships, all of those countries will make up who they are and we hope they embrace all of them.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Arabella said:


> We are a privileged few, those of us who are able to travel. We should be grateful


I tell myself this every time I go overseas. I am also grateful that if I wanted to live and work anywhere in Europe for a few months or even years, I can do so.

Maybe there is an element of jealousy in this whole dual nationality thing. I can't really understand why anyone would care otherwise. I can't remember this ever being an issue in Holland when I lived there. There was more a concern that it was too easy for people to get Dutch nationality.

Another thing that is important in the dual nationality debate is what sometimes happens to migrants as they get older and retire. Some get suddenly incredibly home sick for the things of their youth, especially if they do not have other family in Australia.I have also heard of cases where elderly migrants suddenly lose the ability to speak English and revert to their native language.

I certainly have no intention of joining the expat communities in Thailand, Bali or the Philippines when I retire eventually ( I imagine I'll be working till at least 68 ),but I could definitely see myself dividing my time between Australia, Asia and Europe, if I can afford it.

I certainly have no intention of ever leaving Cairns, where I have spent more time than in any other place, but who knows what the future will bring.


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## Arabella (Sep 18, 2015)

CCMS said:


> I tell myself this every time I go overseas. I am also grateful that if I wanted to live and work anywhere in Europe for a few months or even years, I can do so.
> 
> Maybe there is an element of jealousy in this whole dual nationality thing. I can't really understand why anyone would care otherwise. I can't remember this ever being an issue in Holland when I lived there. There was more a concern that it was too easy for people to get Dutch nationality.
> 
> ...


We Europeans are incredibly lucky. Over my time in Spain I met several Americans who would've killed to be able to stay longer but their government schemes generally only lasted a year.

I can't understand anyone in England who wants to leave the EU. And the sad part of it is, those who are most anti-EU are probably the same people who would retire to Spain if they had the money. Probably living in one of those English communities. It would probably be a good thing for Spain if they couldn't do that, but I'm not sure they're intelligent enough to know that option might get taken away!


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Since you mention Spain. Years ago my wife and I visited some elderly Norwegian friends who lived part of the year in one of those retirement places near Alicante. Lovely people, but they insisted on heaving a heavy stodgy meal ( potatoes, meat and schnaps) at 5 in the afternoon, like they do in Norway.

It took some effort to convince them to join us for a stroll along the Esplanade, mingle with the crowds and have a late night dinner in a proper Spanish restaurant. The only place they had eaten out before was " Uncle Ottos", where they served fish and chips and wiener schnitzel to the expats. They might have been a bit old to learn new tricks, but they were certainly adventurous enough to try a few new things under our guidance. 

I have been in Spain and Portugal a few times over the years and I am always baffled by those people who move there from Europe and the UK, make no effort whatsoever to learn the language, do not engage with the locals and insist on eating the boring food they grew up with. 

Fish and chips, sauerkraut, bratwurst, Dutch breakfast, all very nice, but in Spain???

I am a firm believer that when in Rome, do like the Romans. 

What is odd in all this is that there is a furious debate going on in Europe, the UK and Australia that new immigrants must adapt and integrate. I fully agree with this sentiment. Then when you visit expat communities around the world these same people do the opposite, living in little enclaves and often treating the locals with contempt.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## Arabella (Sep 18, 2015)

Yeah it's absolutely crazy!

I will admit that living in Spain as an English teacher, my friends were largely other teachers. However, I lived with Spanish people and I had a few Spanish friends and my Spanish is of an upper intermediate/advanced level. I loved the Spanish food and style of eating (ie sharing everything), to the point where I struggle to order just one thing these days. If I go for anything like a curry where it's fairly easy to share food, I always take the share option!

And I certainly agree that people have no right to bitch about things like those who move to England and don't learn English when English people do exactly the same abroad. And what's worse is, they often go with the "Oh, well but everyone speaks English anyway" attitude. Not in Spain they don't!

We went down to Fuengirola once when I was in Spain because we were craving some Englishness (haha). We went to a place where a lot of Brits stay and the bar guy was so impressed that we all spoke at least some Spanish! It's shocking!


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

You see that same scenario in Bali, the Philippines, Thailand etc. 

They say that when you learn another language, you gain another life and that's so true. You gain an understanding of a people's culture, their particular sense of humour and all the things that get lost in translation. 

I think Spanish is relatively easy to learn for anyone who speaks English or one of the Germanic languages . I used to speak French quite well, so some very basic Spanish was easy to pick up for me.

I struggle with retaining Asian languages, but I believe anyone should try and learn at least the basics when living in a foreign country for an extended period: things like numbers, greetings, basic food items, please, thank you, etc.

I find that people appreciate it greatly when you make at least an effort, even if they also speak English.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


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## Arabella (Sep 18, 2015)

Spanish is by far the easiest language I've studied.

I attempted to learn some Vietnamese when I went there but I wasn't there very long and it was really difficult!! Could not get the tones at all. I can recognise the words for rice, chicken, beef and noodle soup and that's about it. Some friends lived there for the past year and I went to visit. It was only at the end of the week that I realised the word my friend had been pronouncing "win" (or at least how it sounded to me...) is spelt "ngyugen" (or similar).


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