# Immigrants already being exploited in Australia



## danielrm

Hi all,

Was watching the news and saw comments relating to how immigrants will be exploited by the new visa class being used to supply labor to mines in NT. It struck me as being pretty absurd given immigrants are already being exploited by both private and government businesses all over Australia already.

I am a security dog handler, I work on Railcorp property in NSW protecting trains from vandalism. I am a white Australian however 95% of my colleagues are Indian, Pakistani, African. 

I have been involved in a fight with Workcover NSW, Railcorp and the company that supplies security to Railcorp since September last year over conditions and pay and it is unresolved and it looks like I will lose my job and nothing will change.

Its unfortunate that I cannot post images here since I managed to take photographs of the conditions but I will attempt to describe what is going on with words.

Railcorp contracts a security company to provide security officers to protect Railcorp property. Railcorp is a government owned business. Railcorp provides about 45 dollars to the company per guard per hour. The company provides about 15% of the guards itself, it then contracts other companies at around 27 dollars per guard per hour. The subcontracting company then hires immigrant labour for as little as 14 to 18 dollars per hour. 

That may sound like a great wage but in comparison to what I earn (24 to 38 dollars per hour, plus holidays, sick days, superannuation) its terrible. I was told by my colleagues that they were advised by my company (not Railcorp) but one of the subcontractors to apply for the dole and they would be paid cash in hand so that they would "have a good wage".

The conditions are as follows: many sites have no shelter, no clean drinking water, no toilets, no lunch room. The supervisors refer to the immigrants as "blackies". They are required to be on call 24hrs. Some work 7 days a week, often required to perform back to back shifts of 12 hours, so work 24 hours without a break. They are fired without cause - one case I found particularly disturbing was an African being fired because a cleaner didn't like Africans being in their lunch room so she reported him for sleeping, he wasn't sleeping he was filling out his logbook as required but he was never asked, just told to leave site.

At the site I worked the 'lunch room' was a dumpster, with its lid tipped over and propped up with a piece of timber. The dumpster was the only shelter on site. It was used to hold refuse taken off the commuter trains as they were cleaned and so it contained feces, blood, vomit, urine and anything else that the cleaners swept off the trains. I have a photograph of this.

I have another photograph of the filter which provided the only water which the guards drank on a daily basis. It hadn't been changed in several years and was used to filter water that was recycled and not fit for human consumption. 

The conditions that these guys are working under are 3rd world and they exist today, not in the future if and when Gina Rhineheart imports her own workers.


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## Zamaussie

This is sad news. Don't give up giving out this information one day it will pay off.One person can indeed make a difference!
Am african and my fiancee she is Australian. Hearing such news really makes me sad, if Only I there was something i could do.


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## danielrm

Hey Zamaussie, yeah I intend to keep trying to find someone who will do something. 

Fact is no one who can do anything about it seems to care. We have a very strong undercurrent of racism in Australia, its not out in the open so much anymore but its still there.

If anyone reads this and knows of any organization or individual who could advise me where to take this to get some exposure I would greatly appreciate it.


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## Boboa

I don't see how that relates to racism? In my opinion it has nothing to do with it at all. More with market forces, people agreeing to work for less and rot the system! How is that linked to all the talk about racism? As long as there are people who agree to work for dodgy employers this will always happen. 

Australia has a fantastic system of checks and protection, they could complain to FWA, media or anywhere else. It just means they are not willing to do anything about it. While I'm not against you bringing up the issue and discussing it, I strongly oppose labeling this amazing country as racist. 

I'm not white if you were wondering.


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## Zamaussie

Boboa said:


> I don't see how that relates to racism? In my opinion it has nothing to do with it at all. More with market forces, people agreeing to work for less and rot the system! How is that linked to all the talk about racism? As long as there are people who agree to work for dodgy employers this will always happen.
> 
> Australia has a fantastic system of checks and protection, they could complain to FWA, media or anywhere else. It just means they are not willing to do anything about it. While I'm not against you bringing up the issue and discussing it, I strongly oppose labeling this amazing country as racist.
> 
> I'm not white if you were wondering.


Boboa,
When people are not willing to report you to relevant offices,that doesn't mean you have to take advantage of them. As their employer and responsible citizen and a human being for that matter should be able to see for your self that those work conditions are terrible not only looking at your profits.
If the 95% of the employees were white locals,the employer would have done something about it even without being asked....Danielrm mentioned...

"I have been involved in a fight with Workcover NSW, Railcorp and the company that supplies security to Railcorp since September last year over conditions and pay and it is unresolved and it looks like I will lose my job and nothing will change."....

Its Racism in disguise!!!..It could come from any race, not only white people are racist even black people too. I see that alot here in Southafrica both black and white doing some racist things.

Its a complex matter but until everyone sees each person as a human being just like himself, then we will all try and do the best for others - Selfless Service


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## Trapper

I would suggest that you get in touch with A current Affair, they'll love this sort of stuff.

A Current Affair > Feedback


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## Boboa

Zamaussie said:


> Boboa,
> When people are not willing to report you to relevant offices,that doesn't mean you have to take advantage of them. As their employer and responsible citizen and a human being for that matter should be able to see for your self that those work conditions are terrible not only looking at your profits.
> If the 95% of the employees were white locals,the employer would have done something about it even without being asked....Danielrm mentioned...
> 
> "I have been involved in a fight with Workcover NSW, Railcorp and the company that supplies security to Railcorp since September last year over conditions and pay and it is unresolved and it looks like I will lose my job and nothing will change."....
> 
> Its Racism in disguise!!!..It could come from any race, not only white people are racist even black people too. I see that alot here in Southafrica both black and white doing some racist things.
> 
> Its a complex matter but until everyone sees each person as a human being just like himself, then we will all try and do the best for others - Selfless Service


I understand that, and I know that. I moved from one of the most racist countries on this planet myself. Racism is wrong, ugly and cowardly. And yes racism can be black, white, muslim or yellow.

But labeling the whole country, it's government and it's people as racist because of rotten few is wrong!

Australia is nowhere near being racist. Majority of people and organizations here are very fair and equality be that black, white, gay or straight is valued and protected.


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## danielrm

Boboa said:


> I don't see how that relates to racism? In my opinion it has nothing to do with it at all. More with market forces, people agreeing to work for less and rot the system! How is that linked to all the talk about racism? As long as there are people who agree to work for dodgy employers this will always happen.
> 
> Australia has a fantastic system of checks and protection, they could complain to FWA, media or anywhere else. It just means they are not willing to do anything about it. While I'm not against you bringing up the issue and discussing it, I strongly oppose labeling this amazing country as racist.
> 
> I'm not white if you were wondering.


On the contrary I believe it is a racism issue. Minority groups, primarily Indian, Pakistani and African's are being exploited (terrible conditions / pay) based on their groups vulnerabilities. Additionally the workers are referred to by supervisors (in front of me) as "Blackies", "*******". Workers are sacked without warning or reason because someone reports them falsely because they don't like their race being in the lunchroom and management doesn't investigate or question. How is that not racism?

I disagree with you when you say Australia has a fantastic system. I have contacted Workcover, Fair Work Australia, Independent Rail Safety Regulator, NSW Ombudsman, NSW Minister for Transport and nothing has been done.

To give you an example of how things went.

Workcover
Contacted September - No response
Contacted October - Response in November
Inspector interviewed me at work. Despite promising confidentiality brought my boss and Railcorp manager who stood nearby and watched the interview - later was told that my boss had gloated I had nothing to say while he was there. Prior to interview told me that it was all a misunderstanding due to bad communication. I disagreed, I offered to show evidence that what they were saying was untrue. He refused to view it. Refused to interview people who could prove what I was saying was true with logbooks / notebooks, refused, he had already interviewed people picked by my boss. He then found my allegations unsubstantiated. No action taken.


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## Dexter

> I don't see how that relates to racism?


Neither do I.

Besides, nobody forces immigrants to come here and stay.


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## danielrm

Dexter said:


> Neither do I.
> 
> Besides, nobody forces immigrants to come here and stay.


Why don't you feel what I describe is a racism issue.

Also what are you implying by "Besides, nobody forces immigrants to come here and stay"? Are you saying immigrants deserve to have wages stolen from them, their conditions changed and their safety jeopardized because they weren't forced to come here and can leave if they want?

Also on the first line of your 2 line post, you state that's you agree its not a racism issue and then on the second line you seem to be blaming the immigrants for the discrimination (even though you don't think its a race discrimination issue) for coming to Australia and staying.


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## Boboa

danielrm said:


> Why don't you feel what I describe is a racism issue.
> 
> Also what are you implying by "Besides, nobody forces immigrants to come here and stay"? Are you saying immigrants deserve to have wages stolen from them, their conditions changed and their safety jeopardized because they weren't forced to come here and can leave if they want?
> 
> Also on the first line of your 2 line post, you state that's you agree its not a racism issue and then on the second line you seem to be blaming the immigrants for the discrimination (even though you don't think its a race discrimination issue) for coming to Australia and staying.


What I think he is traying to say is the following:

It doesnt make it a racism issue simply because you decided it is so. 
It doesnt seem the subjects themselves thought it is a racism issue, because they did not support your claims
There are plenty of choices out there (in Australia) so if that was "racism" they can simply leave the organisation and get another job
If they are still keeping these roles they are happy with the job, and your choice to "force" the racism tag on it doesnt seem to be supported by anyone but you
Finally if Australia was that terrible there is always the legal right to claim refuge in more tolerant Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Japan, Russia to name a few. Or to chose to immigrate to any of these more tolerant nations rather than Australia
The choice to come to Australia is made by a person, which means it is much better here than any other place, so there is no point in coming if this is such a terrible place. It doesn't mean Australia is not welcoming, but people are not forced to come here are they? They make an educated and calculated choice to be here. And there is always a fantastic choice to go back!

Every person has the will and the power to change the situation they are in, it is not like Railcorp is the only employer on an absolutely isolated island with nowhere to go. Just because you made the call it is a "racism" issue doesn't mean it is true. It still looks like a bunch of people who might be rotting the system, and possibly should be reported to ATO and fined!


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## danielrm

Boboa said:


> What I think he is traying to say is the following:
> 
> It doesnt make it a racism issue simply because you decided it is so.
> It doesnt seem the subjects themselves thought it is a racism issue, because they did not support your claims
> There are plenty of choices out there (in Australia) so if that was "racism" they can simply leave the organisation and get another job
> If they are still keeping these roles they are happy with the job, and your choice to "force" the racism tag on it doesnt seem to be supported by anyone but you
> Finally if Australia was that terrible there is always the legal right to claim refuge in more tolerant Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Japan, Russia to name a few. Or to chose to immigrate to any of these more tolerant nations rather than Australia
> The choice to come to Australia is made by a person, which means it is much better here than any other place, so there is no point in coming if this is such a terrible place. It doesn't mean Australia is not welcoming, but people are not forced to come here are they? They make an educated and calculated choice to be here. And there is always a fantastic choice to go back!
> 
> Every person has the will and the power to change the situation they are in, it is not like Railcorp is the only employer on an absolutely isolated island with nowhere to go. Just because you made the call it is a "racism" issue doesn't mean it is true. It still looks like a bunch of people who might be rotting the system, and possibly should be reported to ATO and fined!


No he said - "Neither do I" and then "Besides, Nobody forces immigrants to come here and stay". Your list is just a list of your own personal opinions and biases.

Your List:

1. You are correct. It doesn't make it a racism issue because I say it is a racism issue. It makes it a racism issue because people are being hired, paid, treated and fired differently based on their immigrant status.

2. They didn't support my claims because Workcover refused to interview them.

3. If there is discrimination in the workplace the employee should not have to "put up with it or get another job". Why? Because that's what the law says.

4. You assume the only reason someone would stay in a job is because they are happy with it. You completely ignore things like requirement to pay bills and the difficulty inherent in obtaining other employment as an immigrant in Australia.

5 and 6 I don't think are even worth responding to.


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## Boboa

danielrm said:


> No he said - "Neither do I" and then "Besides, Nobody forces immigrants to come here and stay". Your list is just a list of your own personal opinions and biases.
> 
> Your List:
> 
> 1. You are correct. It doesn't make it a racism issue because I say it is a racism issue. It makes it a racism issue because people are being hired, paid, treated and fired differently based on their immigrant status.
> 
> 2. They didn't support my claims because Workcover refused to interview them.
> 
> 3. If there is discrimination in the workplace the employee should not have to "put up with it or get another job". Why? Because that's what the law says.
> 
> 4. You assume the only reason someone would stay in a job is because they are happy with it. You completely ignore things like requirement to pay bills and the difficulty inherent in obtaining other employment as an immigrant in Australia.
> 
> 5 and 6 I don't think are even worth responding to.


You cannot see a simple flaw in your argument

1. Who decided that people are treated differently? It doesn't mean they are treated differently just because you say or believe so.

2. They did not support your claims because they did not choose to go to workcover and complain. Again, just because you believe something is wrong and complain doesn't make it an absolute fact. Workcover takes these claims seriously and they launched an investigation, but it doesn't seem they found something worthy further action. Great respect goes to workcover for being such an organisation that would launch a full investigation from a complain, if anything this proves to me that they are a professional and honest organisation.

3. That is correct, but because a certain person claims there is a discrimination, doesn't mean that is the case. Railcorp might be, in my opinion, a corrupt waste of taxpayers money however that needs to be proved, if I just start telling people about that doesn't mean that makes it an indisputable fact.

4. I assume people would do something if they are unhappy, you ignore the fact that if people do nothing about it means they are happy with whatever status or situation they are in.

5 and 6 It is your right to decide what is worth or not for you, I respect that right. Unfortunately not everyone respects the right of others to use their own judgement and values to the situation they are in. Some people would actually try to force their own criteria of what is worth or not worth, and what is racism or not. A simple right of every human being is to use their right and their own judgment on issues affecting their life, without other people making decisions on their behalf.


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## danielrm

Boboa said:


> You cannot see a simple flaw in your argument
> 
> 1. Who decided that people are treated differently? It doesn't mean they are treated differently just because you say or believe so.
> 
> 2. They did not support your claims because they did not choose to go to workcover and complain, meaning they are happy about it. Again, just because you believe something is wrong and complain doesn't make it an absolute fact. Workcover takes these claims seriously and they launched an investigation, but it doesn't mean they will trust your judgement as ultimate truth.
> 
> 3. That is correct, but because a certain person claims there is a discrimination, doesn't mean that is the case. Railcorp might be, in my opinion, a corrupt waste of taxpayers money however that needs to be proved, if I just start telling people about that doesn't mean that makes it an indisputable fact.
> 
> 4. I assume people would do something if they are unhappy, you ignore the fact that if people do nothing about it means they are happy with whatever status or situation they are in.
> 
> 5 and 6 It is your right to decide what is worth or not for you, I respect that right. Unfortunately not everyone respects the right of others to use their own judgement and values to the situation they are in. Some people would actually try to force their own criteria of what is worth or not worth, and what is racism or not on you.


1. The law decided they are treated differently. The law says you are treated differently if you are vilified (for example called "blackie" or "******" by a supervisor), paid differently (for example 14-18 per hour casual) compared to the Australians (24-38 per hour permanent with penalties, holidays and sick days) or treated differently (fired because you're African and in the lunch room).

2. They did not go to Workcover because they are afraid complaining will cause them to lose their jobs, not because they are happy. You were not given any information which could lead you to conclude the Workcover investigation was conducted properly or that they did not complain because they were happy. You made that up yourself.

3. Who said anything about indisputable facts, I provided you with facts (what I personally saw and experienced), I then provided you with my opinion of why they happened (racism) and backed it up with what the law says happened based on those facts I provided being correct (People were discriminated against because they received in-equal treatment based on their ethnicity).

4. You ignore other factors which might influence people to do nothing even if they are not happy (financial situation, job market, marketability of job-seeker)


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## Zamaussie

Baboa.

I don't agree with your point below...........

"4. I assume people would do something if they are unhappy, you ignore the fact that if people do nothing about it means they are happy with whatever status or situation they are in. "

You mentioned in one of your posts -if am not mistaken- ,that you yourself, happened to have lived in one of the countries where there was alot of racism. Then you are in the better position to understand that people might not always keep their current jobs because they are "happy with it." There are many other factors involved


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## Boboa

Zamaussie said:


> Baboa.
> 
> I don't agree with your point below...........
> 
> "4. I assume people would do something if they are unhappy, you ignore the fact that if people do nothing about it means they are happy with whatever status or situation they are in. "
> 
> You mentioned in one of your posts -if am not mistaken- ,that you yourself, happened to have lived in one of the countries where there was alot of racism. Then you are in the better position to understand that people might not always keep their current jobs because they are "happy with it." There are many other factors involved


Zamaussie I agree with, wholly and absolutely. The difference is I absolutely refuse the tendency to use the "racist" card in, what is in my opinion, a fair society. Australian government and people take racism very seriously and they fight it whenever it pops its ugly head up! It is not the fear of being persecuted or being imprisoned that stops people from fighting racism, like in other countries. So if there are so many protection agencies around you can blaim only yourself for what is happening

I think the racism card is abused to the degree it became sickening. If you have awful English skills and you apply for a job and you dont get it, what is it "The employee is racist". If the policeman pulls you over, he is racist! If somebody passes you the flu, for god sake, they are racist......

I'm just absolutely tired of that, and I think it is unfair for this country which believes in a "fair go" for everyone to be labeled with this label.


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## Dexter

Daniel...

The issue is a Railcop issue and not much of immigrant issue in Australia. Yes, there are companies/organizations in Australia that will pay less to immigrants. Legally, it is perfectly ok - company can offer whatever salary they find appropriate. The final word belongs to the employee. After all, immigrants always have an option of not accepting the job or choosing another one (and many of them do so). Still, this is hardly racism. It is more like capitalism in its true form.

The bigger issue (common for Australia) is how those Indians, Pakistani, Africans exploit other Indians, Pakistani, Africans paying them below national minimum wage. So it is mostly other immigrants exploiting those more vulnerable immigrants. Small shops, paying cash to hand only, no super, $10 per hour or less etc. This is something that should be looked into and is more of an immigrant issue than what you described.

As I said - nobody forces immigrants to come to Australia and stay. If they are not happy, they can move to another job, another city, another country. And I know many that did. Instead, many of them decide to accept what is being done to them. I am an immigrant myself and I did something with the problem in the past. I was being exploited by other immigrants too (never by Australians!). Some companies paid me less money, some paid me more. When I felt underpaid, I looked for another job and once I found it - I just left the one that did not meet my expectations.

Besides, tell me. If I - as an employer - have an immigrant without local experience, who is applying for a job and I know they will accept $45k p/a - why would I pay them $60k p/a? I can as well hire them at $45k and if they prove good at her work, I can give them a raise to $60k after 1 - 2 years. They will be happy to get raise and I will risk less money.



> The law says you are treated differently if you are vilified (for example called "blackie" or "******" by a supervisor), paid differently (for example 14-18 per hour casual) compared to the Australians (24-38 per hour permanent with penalties, holidays and sick days) or treated differently (fired because you're African and in the lunch room).


I actually had a case when my wife (Chinese) was a victim of discrimination by a RailCorp officer at one of the Sydney train stations. He threw a few stupid (although hardly offensive) comments. One of them was something like. "Oh... Chinese always go to Hurstville". Those comments cost the guy his job which he lost a week after we lodged a phone complaint with the head office.

The point is, that if you do something about the problem, you will see some result. Most of those exploited immigrants do not do a thing about it.

Salaries are often based on experience, references, position and predicted opportunities - not where you come from. Also, it is quite obvious that a permanent full timer will be paid more than a casual. It is logical and absolutely right. How many of these casuals actually attempt to apply for a permanent full time either at Railcorp or somewhere else? I am pretty sure not many - given that they usually try to snatch money from a few jobs at once and therefore, it would be inconvenient for them to have permanent employment with fixed working hours.

All in all - it is not racism to be blamed for what is happening but rules of capitalistm which allows this.


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## danielrm

Dexter said:


> Daniel...
> 
> The issue is a Railcop issue and not much of immigrant issue in Australia. Yes, there are companies/organizations in Australia that will pay less to immigrants. Legally, it is perfectly ok - company can offer whatever salary they find appropriate. The final word belongs to the employee. After all, immigrants always have an option of not accepting the job or choosing another one (and many of them do so). Still, this is hardly racism. It is more like capitalism in its true form.
> 
> The bigger issue (common for Australia) is how those Indians, Pakistani, Africans exploit other Indians, Pakistani, Africans paying them below national minimum wage. So it is mostly other immigrants exploiting those more vulnerable immigrants. Small shops, paying cash to hand only, no super, $10 per hour or less etc. This is something that should be looked into and is more of an immigrant issue than what you described.
> 
> As I said - nobody forces immigrants to come to Australia and stay. If they are not happy, they can move to another job, another city, another country. And I know many that did. Instead, many of them decide to accept what is being done to them. I am an immigrant myself and I did something with the problem in the past. I was being exploited by other immigrants too (never by Australians!). Some companies paid me less money, some paid me more. When I felt underpaid, I looked for another job and once I found it - I just left the one that did not meet my expectations.
> 
> Besides, tell me. If I - as an employer - have an immigrant without local experience, who is applying for a job and I know they will accept $45k p/a - why would I pay them $60k p/a? I can as well hire them at $45k and if they prove good at her work, I can give them a raise to $60k after 1 - 2 years. They will be happy to get raise and I will risk less money.
> 
> I actually had a case when my wife (Chinese) was a victim of discrimination by a RailCorp officer at one of the Sydney train stations. He threw a few stupid (although hardly offensive) comments. One of them was something like. "Oh... Chinese always go to Hurstville". Those comments cost the guy his job which he lost a week after we lodged a phone complaint with the head office.
> 
> The point is, that if you do something about the problem, you will see some result. Most of those exploited immigrants do not do a thing about it.
> 
> Salaries are often based on experience, references, position and predicted opportunities - not where you come from. Also, it is quite obvious that a permanent full timer will be paid more than a casual. It is logical and absolutely right. How many of these casuals actually attempt to apply for a permanent full time either at Railcorp or somewhere else? I am pretty sure not many - given that they usually try to snatch money from a few jobs at once and therefore, it would be inconvenient for them to have permanent employment with fixed working hours.
> 
> All in all - it is not racism to be blamed for what is happening but rules of capitalistm which allows this.


" is how those Indians, Pakistani, Africans"
"nobody forces immigrants to come to Australia and stay"
"Most of those exploited immigrants"
"given that they usually try to"

The above are almost picture perfect examples of generalized racial stereotyping.

There were also serious errors in your post -

It is not "perfectly ok" for employers to pay whatever they like, there are minimum statutory wages and then usually for each industry an industry award which prohibits paying less then the prescribed amount.

Casual workers always get higher pay per hour than full time permanent (20 to 30 per cent more)


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## Dexter

> National minimum wage - Pay - Fair Work Ombudsman





> Casual employee entitlements - Classifications & categories - Retail - Industries - Fair Work Ombudsman


This is what law states about national minimum wage and payments. As you can see, there is no regulation that says that employee needs to be offered particular money (obviously nothing below national minimum) or particular percentage more than a full timer if they are a casual. You may be mentioning this because of some Union agreements in Australia - like the one between SDA and Coles Group in regards to payments in supermarkets and department stores. Although again - company has a freedom of offering more money to some employees and less employees to some other.

Paying casuals $18 per hour is completely legal. Paying casuals $14 per hour is not legal (unless you are referring to rate after tax - because minimum $15.51 is before tax). Also, I have gone through awards related to Rail agreements in Australia and here is what I found

[urlhttps://extranet.deewr.gov.au/ccmsv8/CiLiteKnowledgeDetailsFrameset.htm?KNOWLEDGE_REF=90977&TYPE=X&ID=1486507489215229288889912894&DOCUMENT_REF=244837&DOCUMENT_TITLE=Railways%20Traffic,%20Permanent%20Way%20and%20Signalling%20Wages%20Staff%20Award%202002&DOCUMENT_CODE=AP817741[/url]

It says the following



> 18.	GUARANTEED PAYMENT
> 
> 18.1	Except as provided in subclauses 18.4 and 18.5 an employee who is ready and willing and available for all work offering shall be paid each fortnight an amount equivalent to the number of hours prescribed herein at the ordinary rate of wage for their grade. In satisfaction of such guaranteed payment there shall be included all wages paid to the employee within the first ten shifts excluding the following:
> 
> 18.1.1	Employees on the running staff other than guard/second person
> 
> 18.1.1(a)	penalties for shift work and for Saturday time, public holidays and for Sunday time; and
> 
> 18.1.1(b)	any allowance representing the difference between the classified rate and the ordinary rate applicable whilst acting in a higher grade.
> 
> 18.1.2	All other employees except casuals and guards/second persons:
> 
> 18.1.2(a)	penalties for shift work and for overtime, Saturday time, public holidays and Sunday time; and
> 
> 18.1.2(b)	any allowance representing the difference between the classified rate and the ordinary rate applicable whilst acting in a higher grade.
> 
> 18.1.2(c)	if earnings in the first ten shifts fall short of the guaranteed minimum then payment for up to four hours of an 11th shift with penalty at time and one half may be used.
> 
> 18.2	Where through genuine illness or approved leave, payment less than the guaranteed minimum becomes due to an employee, payment shall be made at the guaranteed minimum less the amount which would have accrued due to the employee had they performed any duty available to them during the period of such absence. If the latter amount cannot be determined the deduction shall be of one day's pay in respect of each day's absence.
> 
> 18.3	Where an employee is absent from duty without pay on account of other than genuine illness or approved leave, the guarantee shall not apply and payment will be made for time actually worked within the period.
> 
> *18.4	The provisions of this Guarantee clause do not apply to Casual employees*


Again - no word about 20 - 30% that you ask for. Employees will be offered different salaries depending on their experience and individual negotiations between employer and employee.



> The above are almost picture perfect examples of generalized racial stereotyping.


Read my e-mail properly first... There are things happening to immigrants in particular described in there (not just Indians, Pakistani or Africans). If you don't want to open your eyes to see the other side of the story - your choice.

Have you reported the events to Fair Work / Industrial Relations? Given how confident you are about being right, I would say you should...


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## Boboa

danielrm said:


> " is how those Indians, Pakistani, Africans"
> "nobody forces immigrants to come to Australia and stay"
> "Most of those exploited immigrants"
> "given that they usually try to"
> 
> The above are almost picture perfect examples of generalized racial stereotyping.
> 
> There were also serious errors in your post -
> 
> It is not "perfectly ok" for employers to pay whatever they like, there are minimum statutory wages and then usually for each industry an industry award which prohibits paying less then the prescribed amount.
> 
> Casual workers always get higher pay per hour than full time permanent (20 to 30 per cent more)


While desire to help others is commendable; it is clear that you have an extremely tunnelled vision. It is always easy blame someone for issues happening around you, actually getting to a degree where you blame someone for "generalized racial stereotyping" just because they don't agree with you is not a way to win an argument.


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## danielrm

@Dexter 

The Award is the Security Industry Award 2010. I don't know of any industry or group where permanent employee's get more per hour than casuals; I doubt it exists. The casual loading is 25%.

I did read your post however what I was commenting on was the way you were stereotyping based on race. You were also jumping to conclusions based purely on your opinion of why an entire segment of the community did certain things (as an example had multiple jobs). 

@Boboa

I called it generalized racial stereotyping because that is what its classified as. If I say "all Aussies are racist" then I am stereotyping Australians. If I say "all Indian's work multiple jobs and don't want full time employment" then I am stereotyping Indians based on race. Both of the statements are stereotyping and obviously incorrect. This is an accepted fact, not an accusation.

I think the best thing to do is to agree to disagree. I feel both of you guys are a little biased in your thinking and not likely to reevaluate your positions.


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## Dexter

Daniel...

From your comments I am pretty sure that you don't really know how immigrant's life really looks. You are just focusing on the idea that everyone is just generalizing, stereotypes, racism etc. Both me and Boboa are immigrants and both of us (I am pretty sure Boboa did so too) went through that casual stage in their immigrant life. We both are writing about it because we know it does exist and is nothing like generalizing. It is absolutely normal for huge majority of immigrants to go through it. Why?

1. Because it is difficult to find work in Australia without local experience. At the beginning immigrants usually work for other immigrants, mostly small companies and are often paid well below national minimum and often cash to hand. Only some of them are lucky enough to get a good employer with good wage in the first go. 

2. There is a lot of immigrant grey market in Australia and they only have casual or on call jobs. For some immigrants these are the only jobs they can get. For some other - extra few dollars. Grey market is mostly created by immigrants who have small businesses. If you go around Hurstville for example - you will notice plenty small Chinese restaurants, herbalists, remedial therapy places, massage shops, supermarkets etc. Would you believe that ALL of them pay no more than $10 per hour and only cash to hand? How do I know? Because my wife is Chinese and some time ago she went through all of them, trying to apply for work. However, I am pretty much convinced that all you see is generalizing and stereotyping that "Chinese pay cash to hand and no more than $10 per hour" and don't really see that there is bigger problem than a few immigrants hired as casuals being paid $18 per hour (for many of them this is actually a good salary). 

3. Once you have a few casual jobs you begin to feel safe. Even you get sacked from one place, you still have 1 - 2 more left and you are not left without money. I personally had 4 at some stage and it did help me. It is not easy to believe that actually if you switch to just one job, you can feel safe. I remember, after getting permanent full time in April 2007, I kept one more casual work just in case for another 2 years - just to make sure that everything goes fine. Plenty of other acquaintances (also immigrants) did exactly the same until the point when they started feeling safe. 

Indians, Pakistani, Asians (often mistakenly referred to as Chinese) are in particularly difficult position in Australia. There are more of them than other groups and there is larger grey market in their communities. Also, their English skills are usually lower than for example European immigrants (Asians) or their accents are so difficult to understand that locals actually think that they don't have proper English skills (Indians, Pakistani). 

Maybe Railcorp is indeed taking advantage of that fact and having possibility of paying less to immigrants they do so. I am not denying that. They don't do that to the locals because they are aware of the fact that they would just quit. I am just stating that there are bigger frauds in job market than paying a casual $18 per hour. 

As for salaries - I am not familiar with public sector as I work in privately owned mid size company in IT industry. Even in my team that reports to me, I have some people on $60k and some other on $45k and they all have the same position (their duties are slightly different). Salaries were offered based on their experience and they were offered these salaries before joining the company. It was up to them to accept it. I could hire a casual and pay them $20 per hour before tax and I have also seen no regulation that could stop me from doing this. I have not seen awards referring to telemarketers, data entry (I am not Award Finder now) or sales reps in IT industry. I will be grateful if you can show me award or regulation that proves I am not allowed to do this.


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## danielrm

Dexter said:


> Daniel...
> 
> From your comments I am pretty sure that you don't really know how immigrant's life really looks. You are just focusing on the idea that everyone is just generalizing, stereotypes, racism etc. Both me and Boboa are immigrants and both of us (I am pretty sure Boboa did so too) went through that casual stage in their immigrant life. We both are writing about it because we know it does exist and is nothing like generalizing. It is absolutely normal for huge majority of immigrants to go through it. Why?
> 
> 1. Because it is difficult to find work in Australia without local experience. At the beginning immigrants usually work for other immigrants, mostly small companies and are often paid well below national minimum and often cash to hand. Only some of them are lucky enough to get a good employer with good wage in the first go.
> 
> 2. There is a lot of immigrant grey market in Australia and they only have casual or on call jobs. For some immigrants these are the only jobs they can get. For some other - extra few dollars. Grey market is mostly created by immigrants who have small businesses. If you go around Hurstville for example - you will notice plenty small Chinese restaurants, herbalists, remedial therapy places, massage shops, supermarkets etc. Would you believe that ALL of them pay no more than $10 per hour and only cash to hand? How do I know? Because my wife is Chinese and some time ago she went through all of them, trying to apply for work. However, I am pretty much convinced that all you see is generalizing and stereotyping that "Chinese pay cash to hand and no more than $10 per hour" and don't really see that there is bigger problem than a few immigrants hired as casuals being paid $18 per hour (for many of them this is actually a good salary).
> 
> 3. Once you have a few casual jobs you begin to feel safe. Even you get sacked from one place, you still have 1 - 2 more left and you are not left without money. I personally had 4 at some stage and it did help me. It is not easy to believe that actually if you switch to just one job, you can feel safe. I remember, after getting permanent full time in April 2007, I kept one more casual work just in case for another 2 years - just to make sure that everything goes fine. Plenty of other acquaintances (also immigrants) did exactly the same until the point when they started feeling safe.
> 
> Indians, Pakistani, Asians (often mistakenly referred to as Chinese) are in particularly difficult position in Australia. There are more of them than other groups and there is larger grey market in their communities. Also, their English skills are usually lower than for example European immigrants (Asians) or their accents are so difficult to understand that locals actually think that they don't have proper English skills (Indians, Pakistani).
> 
> Maybe Railcorp is indeed taking advantage of that fact and having possibility of paying less to immigrants they do so. I am not denying that. They don't do that to the locals because they are aware of the fact that they would just quit. I am just stating that there are bigger frauds in job market than paying a casual $18 per hour.
> 
> As for salaries - I am not familiar with public sector as I work in privately owned mid size company in IT industry. Even in my team that reports to me, I have some people on $60k and some other on $45k and they all have the same position (their duties are slightly different). Salaries were offered based on their experience and they were offered these salaries before joining the company. It was up to them to accept it. I could hire a casual and pay them $20 per hour before tax and I have also seen no regulation that could stop me from doing this. I have not seen awards referring to telemarketers, data entry (I am not Award Finder now) or sales reps in IT industry. I will be grateful if you can show me award or regulation that proves I am not allowed to do this.


HI Dexter, I don't necessarily disagree with most of what you say, just perhaps the way you say it and the way you seem to put all the blame on the immigrants and little to none on the people doing the exploiting. When you do put blame on those exploiting, you tend to try to shift the blame to only immigrant employers.

20 dollars per hour before tax is probably a legal wage for the positions you describe. As a grade 2 dog handler I am getting 24 per hour including tax. But there's a big jump from 20 per hour post-tax to 14-18 pre-tax (minimum wage in SIA2010 Grade 1 Security officer being 16.40) + (25% casual loading) + (30% night shift loading) > 18.00 per hour.

I will look those awards up for you though. I'm guessing they will be around 16 per hour + casual loading of 20% being around 19.00 per hour.


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## Dexter

As a telemarketer 5 years ago I used to get about $17 per hour and it was casual.

Yes, I blame immigrant employees - or in particular immigrant owners of small businesses. Because it is them breaking law in so many matters that gives guys like Railcorp opportunity to offer $18 per hour to immigrant casuals whereas non-immigrants get a lot more. Simply, nobody would work for such low rate. Instead $18 per hour looks like blessing to many of those immigrants. Other one of their kind would never pay them even close to it. I understand it may be difficult to imagine when you are not an immigrant and never went through it.

Some examples of low rates offered to telemarketers can be even found on seek.com.au

SEEK - Customer Service Representatives - Casual Job in Sydney - $15 - $19.99 per hour

As for other call centre positions - I have seen rates starting from $19 per hour. Usually goes around $20 - $22 per hour.


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## Nelly87

I personally wouldn't go as far as to say that "immigrants aren't forced to come and stay here, so they can leave if they don't like it" - I don't believe the world is that simple. I think a lot of people become immigrants because their home countries are not safe, and I wouldn't necessarily tell them "put up with anything or go home". I know a family from Africa who moved to Australia decades ago so their children could be raised in a country without constant rape, pillaging and violence (which is what was going on in their homecountry at the time). I am lucky to be here for a partner but some of us come here for sadder reasons and to them, being taken advantage of isn't that bad if it keeps their kids safe.

That said, I would NEVER call Australia a racist country.

I actually have met a few Australians who have some issues with immigrants, bad luck on my end because they are RARE I know, and they said the funniest thing; "those Muslims don't respect our culture and want to replace it with their own, so I hate Muslims". It's fighting fire with fire. By letting a few extreme cases blind you, YOU become the racist yourself. Be very careful with that because it is a line *none* of us intend to cross but many still do because they believe they are being justified by one horrible incident or one small group.


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## Zamaussie

Nelly87 said:


> I personally wouldn't go as far as to say that "immigrants aren't forced to come and stay here, so they can leave if they don't like it" - I don't believe the world is that simple. I think a lot of people become immigrants because their home countries are not safe, and I wouldn't necessarily tell them "put up with anything or go home". I know a family from Africa who moved to Australia decades ago so their children could be raised in a country without constant rape, pillaging and violence (which is what was going on in their homecountry at the time). I am lucky to be here for a partner but some of us come here for sadder reasons and to them, being taken advantage of isn't that bad if it keeps their kids safe.
> 
> That said, I would NEVER call Australia a racist country.
> 
> I actually have met a few Australians who have some issues with immigrants, bad luck on my end because they are RARE I know, and they said the funniest thing; "those Muslims don't respect our culture and want to replace it with their own, so I hate Muslims". It's fighting fire with fire. By letting a few extreme cases blind you, YOU become the racist yourself. Be very careful with that because it is a line *none* of us intend to cross but many still do because they believe they are being justified by one horrible incident or one small group.


Well said Nelly87 !


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## robboat

The great thing about Australia is that YOU can do something to improve your situation.

If you have a job you don't like or it is too hard - then change......
No one is keeping you at work.....
Go and get training for a better job at TAFE.....use online courses.

Go ahead - make things happen - don't just be a whinger and complain.

That is the real Australian - stand up for yourself and your mates - be smart and make change.

For the RailCorp OP.......take your own water to work, bring a folding seat, bring an umbrella. Make it as good as you can to work in those situations.....YOU can make changes!
Make sure you and the other workers are on the Award rates....not more or less.
If they don't let you make change - quit and get a better job.

Good luck.


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## danielrm

robboat said:


> For the RailCorp OP.......take your own water to work, bring a folding seat, bring an umbrella. Make it as good as you can to work in those situations.....YOU can make changes!
> Make sure you and the other workers are on the Award rates....not more or less.
> If they don't let you make change - quit and get a better job.
> 
> Good luck.


This sounds like good advice but its a little naive.

You could not realistically carry enough clean drinking water to work (can't take cars on site nor can you step outside the gate to get something from your car once on duty) to last a twelve hour shift in hot weather nor should you have to when the law states the employer MUST provide it.

Why take a folding seat when you are prohibited from sitting down anyway. If they saw a guard with a folding seat at work they would have him reported and it taken off site. If he was sitting on it he would be sacked.

Umbrellas are specifically prohibited for any guard to use as they can block the reflective vest, everyone else (Rail) uses them but a guard would be sacked as they are contractors.

And no you cannot make changes, I put my job on the line by trying to stand up for my and my fellow workers rights and I lost my job for it.


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## Boboa

danielrm said:


> This sounds like good advice but its a little naive.
> 
> You could not realistically carry enough clean drinking water to work (can't take cars on site nor can you step outside the gate to get something from your car once on duty) to last a twelve hour shift in hot weather nor should you have to when the law states the employer MUST provide it.
> 
> Why take a folding seat when you are prohibited from sitting down anyway. If they saw a guard with a folding seat at work they would have him reported and it taken off site. If he was sitting on it he would be sacked.
> 
> Umbrellas are specifically prohibited for any guard to use as they can block the reflective vest, everyone else (Rail) uses them but a guard would be sacked as they are contractors.
> 
> And no you cannot make changes, I put my job on the line by trying to stand up for my and my fellow workers rights and I lost my job for it.


Pfft please, auditor general found that railcorp contractors are a corrupt waste of taxpayers money. I would shut down the whole shop and get the whole circus closed down. Chair? What chair? I don't have a chance to sit down at my job and I don't complain!

Not enough water? Get yourself a two litter bottle and stop complaining.

Maybe railcorp guys would like us to provide them with a taxpayer funded masseurs? How about a siesta time specifically for railcorp guards. So they can sit by the pool and sip a cocktail, rather than doing what they are supposed to do.

Please, the whole NSW is fed up with railcorp, it's slow ineffective and absolutely unproductive system. Employees of this organization be that permanent or contractors are lucky enough that they are paid by every NSW taxpayer and shouldn't have any right to complain. If that was a private organization half of them would have been gone in a tick of time.


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## Dexter

> I put my job on the line by trying to stand up for my and my fellow workers rights and I lost my job for it.


From the first moment I read your story, I was pretty sure it would end like that. Not because of cruel employers but because nobody wants employees who cause trouble.

Not a while ago in my company a Muslim woman fell of stairs and allegedly decided to take the case with Workcover (I only know that from other's stories). From the first moment it was obvious she would lose (I am not even sure why she tried). First of all - company is not responsible for the fact that someone does not hold the railing and that someone wears high heel shoes to work when OH&S training sessions take place every 2 months and it is reminded quite often. She lost.

A few weeks after that employment reductions took place. Since her work performance wasn't very good, she got retrenched first... I can say that as a manager I would do the same - obviously making sure that everything is in accordance with Australian law and other regulations.

Before you decide to fight for something think of consequences and first of all if you are actually right.


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## danielrm

Boboa said:


> Pfft please, auditor general found that railcorp contractors are a corrupt waste of taxpayers money. I would shut down the whole shop and get the whole circus closed down. Chair? What chair? I don't have a chance to sit down at my job and I don't complain!
> 
> Not enough water? Get yourself a two litter bottle and stop complaining.
> 
> Maybe railcorp guys would like us to provide them with a taxpayer funded masseurs? How about a siesta time specifically for railcorp guards. So they can sit by the pool and sip a cocktail, rather than doing what they are supposed to do.
> 
> Please, the whole NSW is fed up with railcorp, it's slow ineffective and absolutely unproductive system. Employees of this organization be that permanent or contractors are lucky enough that they are paid by every NSW taxpayer and shouldn't have any right to complain. If that was a private organization half of them would have been gone in a tick of time.


You seem to be trolling.

The constant walking at my work caused fractures in the bones of my feet and the plantar fascia in my feet are 4 times the usual thickness and I have to wear medical boots and possibly have surgery. I don't care if you don't get to sit down at your work, you obviously are not required to walk constantly for 12 hours for up to 75 hours per week on sharp jagged rocky ground.

Your suggestion that we take 2 litres and stop complaining is also completely nonsensical. In 32 degree's or above a human needs to drink about 1 litre of water per hour during moderate exercise or they will become dehydrated, suffer heat stroke and eventually die. We work in up to 45 degrees.

In reality your opinion, and my opinion, means very little in the face of the law. It should be adhered to by all Australians.



Dexter said:


> From the first moment I read your story, I was pretty sure it would end like that. Not because of cruel employers but because nobody wants employees who cause trouble.
> 
> ...
> 
> Before you decide to fight for something think of consequences and first of all if you are actually right.


It ended like that because the system is corrupt and for no other reason. Of course I'm right, the law says employers must provide a safe workplace (WHS Act) and they must provide amenities (Workplace Amenties Code). Its not rocket science.


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## Dexter

> It ended like that because the system is corrupt and for no other reason


Ehhhh... sounds just like comments on the lady from my work I described.


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## Boboa

Regardless of what is happened, there are far too many people who try to abuse the rights given to them. In my opinion, an absolute majority of these workcover claims and OHS "issues" are brought up because they are seen as a money making apparatus. Too many people are expecting employers to provide them with everything; from ensuring they are fed and hydrated to slipping and tripping where no normal person would&#8230;. People are simply forgetting that employers are the entity that provides them with a job and a purpose, and if we continue doing everything possible to make businesses unviable in this country we have no one by ourselves to blame. This includes a plethora of what is in my opinion absolutely useless, biased work laws which are unnecessary.

These laws were needed during industrial revolution when workers had nothing to protect them, while today everything starting from corrupt unions, to sometimes overburdening worker (read lazy, unproductive) protection laws are not needed. Usually if an employee is a productive, honest person they wouldn't find it hard to find a job elsewhere, and if their rights are not upheld there is an excellent court system to protect them.

To your knowledge *Australia is ranked the 8th least corrupt country on this planet*... obviously this contradicts with your claims


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