# Help got refused with 485 Graduate Visa



## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

29/8

I have decided to represent myself on court, could any of you give suggestion to the arguments I am going to use on court. Please go to page 2 #15 to see them.

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Hi,

My visa application got refused because I did not meet the requirement of 
" satisfied the Australian Study requirement in the period of six
months immediately before the day the application was made."

I have lodged the application on 10 JUN 2015 because I thought my completion date was on 10 DEC 2014 which is within six months time.

However, they said the date on my certificate is not a valid completion date so I asked my college to give me a completion letter.

When I received my completed letter and I found out the completion date on the letter was 5 DEC 2014 which is 6 months and 5 days before the application date and thus all this happen.

Also, I have a transcript that I ordered before graduation date which stated the status of my course is still "Approved" on 10 DEC. According to our school website, "If you require proof of completion prior to graduating, you can order an academic transcript which will show your 'approved' status, demonstrating you have completed the requirements of the award."

How the hell my complete date on the letter will suddenly become 5 DEC. If the status of my course is still only approved on10 DEC how can I be completed on 5 DEC. Can I use this as a valid reason for why I lodge the application late.

I am so depressed now, because I was stupid to try to buy as much time as I can to stay in Australia. At that time I was thinking of going back my country if I still could not find a job before 10 DEC. But I got my job offer on 10 DEC and I applied the visa immediately.

My question to you all is it there any chance I can appeal this decisions successfully. What are you guys advises. I really don't want to go back and I dont want to lose what I have now.....Please help


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## MaryMar (Sep 2, 2013)

Howka I am sure you have a right of Appeal, I would post this question in 'ASK MARK' for more concrete advice, and good luck


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## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

MaryMar said:


> Howka I am sure you have a right of Appeal, I would post this question in 'ASK MARK' for more concrete advice, and good luck


I know I have the right, but do I have a high chance to success .......:<


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## max2015 (Aug 25, 2015)

i think you need professional help. meet a lawyer and loge an appeal. all the best


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## AusIndo (Apr 28, 2015)

Howka, the reason for the refusal is simply because you lodged 485 prior to your completion date. 

The 6 months is post completion NOT leading up to completion. If your completion date is in Dec 2015 than you must lodge your 485 within 6 months after Dec 2015 no later than Jun 2016.

I'm afraid you have no case to fight.

Are you still on your student visa at the moment?
If so, you can still remain in Australia and work full time (only if your course is not in session) than reapply for 485 visa after your completion date in Dec this year.

All the best!


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

Do you mean dec 14 not dec 15?

You need to speak with a registered agent your only way around it is with the completion certificate from the university. If it still says the wrong date then an appeal wouldn't help because you do not meet the requirements of the visa. The university completion date is the only chance. Speak with a registered agent ASAP.


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## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

AusIndo said:


> Howka, the reason for the refusal is simply because you lodged 485 prior to your completion date.
> 
> The 6 months is post completion NOT leading up to completion. If your completion date is in Dec 2015 than you must lodge your 485 within 6 months after Dec 2015 no later than Jun 2016.
> 
> ...


Sorry mate I was referring DEC 2014.


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## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

Mish said:


> Do you mean dec 14 not dec 15?
> 
> You need to speak with a registered agent your only way around it is with the completion certificate from the university. If it still says the wrong date then an appeal wouldn't help because you do not meet the requirements of the visa. The university completion date is the only chance. Speak with a registered agent ASAP.


Even though I was mislead by the best available information on the official website and so I lodged a application late, i still have not change to win the appeal?

Or should I ask my college to change my completion day due to the below evidence? It does not make sense that they gave me 5 DEC completion date on the letter but show the other date on the transcript.


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## AusIndo (Apr 28, 2015)

howka said:


> Sorry mate I was referring DEC 2014.


Oh ok that clears it up.


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## wrussell (Dec 31, 2014)

Based on what has been posted, a review application cannot succeed.

The completion date is when the applicant met the academic requirements for the qualification, not when the qualification was conferred, or the date course provider indicated as the completion date; by whatever means.

I have successfully represented clients who applied too early and claimed a completion date that was at odds with the 'official' completion date.

I have never represented a client who applied too late after completion, but I have advised such clients about their possible strategies. 

May I suggest you consult a registered migration agent for advice about possible strategies?


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## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

wrussell said:


> Based on what has been posted, a review application cannot succeed.
> 
> The completion date is when the applicant met the academic requirements for the qualification, not when the qualification was conferred, or the date course provider indicated as the completion date; by whatever means.
> 
> ...


So the only way I can do it is ask for the change in the date of completion letter. I was mislead by the information on the official website, what can I do to make them change the completion date. Can i sue them for the misleading information that causing lost to me?


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## AusIndo (Apr 28, 2015)

howka said:


> So the only way I can do it is ask for the change in the date of completion letter. I was mislead by the information on the official website, what can I do to make them change the completion date. Can i sue them for the misleading information that causing lost to me?


You can try to reason with them rather than suing.

The money you use to sue them is better spent on migration agent to assist you.


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## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

AusIndo said:


> You can try to reason with them rather than suing.
> 
> The money you use to sue them is better spent on migration agent to assist you.


OK I will try it...

One more question to you guys, if I chose to review the case, how much time does the AAT need to finalize the case ? I have been advised that it needs to take at least 12 months?


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## AusIndo (Apr 28, 2015)

howka said:


> OK I will try it... One more question to you guys, if I chose to review the case, how much time does the AAT need to finalize the case ? I have been advised that it needs to take at least 12 months?


I'm not well versed on review waiting period but if that's what the AAT officer guided you with, than that's your benchmark.

All the best and make sure you're well prepared at the court.


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## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

Hi all,

If I can obtain a official letter which states that "my degree status was changed to "Approved" on 10 Dec 2014. According to the rule of ANU graduation office, Approved' status demonstrates you have completed the requirements of the award."

Is this a valid evidence that can show that I satisfied the 485.213 & 1.15F *when I lodged the application*. The red word is important because the law only requires the applicant to meet this criteria at time of application.

According to the law, I need to satisfied the academic requirement within 6 month when you lodge the application. As I know that, the law does not state that completion letter is the only evidence to prove that I meet 485.213. It is just the DIBP preference to prove that I satisfied the Primary criteria. The law only states that I need to satisfy the Minister.

Do you guy agree I have a chance to successfully prove that 10 Dec 2014 was my completion date when I lodged the application if I follow the above argument when I go to court.

For your information, I will quote the related regulations.

_485.21 Criteria to be satisfied at time of application

485.213 The following requirements are met:
(a) the applicant satisfied the Australian study requirement in the period of 6 months ending immediately before the day on which the application was made;
(b) each degree, diploma or trade qualification used to satisfy the Australian study requirement is closely related to the applicant's nominated skilled occupation._

[1.15F] (1) A person satisfies the Australian study requirement if the person satisfies the
Minister that the person has completed 1 or more degrees, diplomas or trade qualifications for
award by an Australian educational institution as a result of a course or courses:
(a) that are registered courses; and
(b) that were completed in a total of at least 16 calendar months; and
(c) that were completed as a result of a total of at least 2 academic years study; and
(d) for which all instruction was conducted in English; and
(e) that the applicant undertook while in Australia as the holder of a visa authorising the
applicant to study.

Note Academic year is defined in regulation 1.03.

[1.15F] (2) In this regulation:
completed, in relation to a degree, diploma or trade qualification, means having met the
academic requirements for its award.


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## AusIndo (Apr 28, 2015)

Have you contracted an RMA???


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## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

AusIndo said:


> Have you contracted an RMA???


I have not contracted anyone and what is RMA?


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## wrussell (Dec 31, 2014)

howka said:


> I have not contracted anyone and what is RMA?


A Registered Migration Agent


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## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

wrussell said:


> A Registered Migration Agent


At this point I am not intended to hire anyone. I will try to represent myself on the court because this is not a very complicated case.

I will treat the time of appealing as a bonus for me to stay in Australia, if I cannot win the court. I can still have at least 6 months to stay in Australia. Since this visa is only for 1.5 year, it doesnt really worth 4-5K to hire a RMA or may be I can even apply PR at that time

I will try to get help from my law friends and the fellows in this forum. So please give me some opinions about my argument.


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## wrussell (Dec 31, 2014)

Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

Unless you can get a revised certificate from your university with a date within the 6 months then you won't be successful. Even with a new date it could still be rejected because they could say that the dates are just being changed to meet the requirements of the visa.

Just one thing to be aware of - if AAT think that it is an easy win for them they may process it faster.


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## AusIndo (Apr 28, 2015)

howka said:


> At this point I am not intended to hire anyone. I will try to represent myself on the court because this is not a very complicated case ...


Never underestimate the complexity of your case, the fact that you ended up having to deal with AAT yields to me that you need some professional help.

Nevertheless, I wish you all the luck - because you need it!

Keep us posted.


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## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

New update I have got the official letter that clearly state that I completed the course requirements ON 10 DEC 2014.

Do you guy think this evidence can prove that this date is my actual completion date.


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## AusIndo (Apr 28, 2015)

howka said:


> New update I have got the official that clearly state that I completed the course requirements ON 10 DEC 2014. Do you guy think this evidence can prove that this date is my actual completion date.


Immigration (if not already) will red flag your case due to the date change. An RMA however will be able to assist you.

I'm interested to know what your law friends think about this evidence?


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## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

AusIndo said:


> Immigration (if not already) will red flag your case due to the date change. An RMA however will be able to assist you.
> 
> I'm interested to know what your law friends think about this evidence?


The date did not change. This date is given by the graduate department before the visa application and the other one 5 Dec 2014 is given by my Business and Economic college after I lodged the application

My law friend who is now a solicitor in a small law firm said I just need to make the tribunal member believe this document is a valid evidence at the time of applying the visa, then I would win the case. It is because this letter definitely satisfies the law regarding "completion" and thus it can be used to prove the date I completed the requirement of my degree.

The inconsistency of the date within two departments is not a concern since the law does not specify state that what type of evidence you should present or who is the only authorization (department) which can provide the evidence.


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## AusIndo (Apr 28, 2015)

howka said:


> The date did not change. This date is given by the graduate department before the application and the other one 5 Dec 2014 is given by my Business and Economic college after I lodged the application My law friends who is now a solicitor in a small law firm said I just need to make the tribunal member believe this document is a valid evidence at the time of applying the visa, then I would win the case. It is because this letter definitely satisfies the law regarding "completion" and thus it can be used to prove the date I completed the requirement of my degree. The inconsistency of the date within two departments is not a concern since the law does not specify state that how your evidence obtained or who is the only authorization (department) which can provide the evidence.


Very good. Looks like you're all set?
I hope you win the case and can move forward!


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## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

AusIndo said:


> Very good. Looks like you're all set?
> I hope you win the case and can move forward!


Yes may be. But without the help form RMA, I need to write an law essay to state the reasons why I disagree the refusal decision myself.

It has been about 2 years since the last time I wrote a law essay!!


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## AusIndo (Apr 28, 2015)

howka said:


> Yes may be. But without the help form RMA, I need to write an law essay to state the reasons why I disagree the refusal decision myself. It has been about 2 years since the last time I wrote a law essay!!


Law essay, what on earth is that?
I believe you're referring to dispute letter?


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

howka said:


> Yes may be. But without the help form RMA, I need to write an law essay to state the reasons why I disagree the refusal decision myself.
> 
> It has been about 2 years since the last time I wrote a law essay!!


Lol.

You write facts and then tie is back to the law. Does that make sense?


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## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

Mish said:


> Lol.
> 
> You write facts and then tie is back to the law. Does that make sense?


I believe writing that dispute letter in the format of a law essay will make my argument more presentable.

I will use IRAC which I learnt form my law course to wirte my dispute letter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRAC


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## AusIndo (Apr 28, 2015)

howka said:


> I believe writing that dispute letter in the format of a law essay will make my argument more presentable. I will use IRAC which I learnt form my law course to wirte my dispute letter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRAC


Yeah, Wikipedia is the best source of support for your case I can't agree more!

May the force be with you.


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

I would set it out like DIBP do. So you state the issues, facts, evidence you supplied and then decision and conclusion. The decision needs to tie back to law and how you meet the requirements - the section should be quoted in your refusal notice.

The problem you have to trying to convince them that the new one is the right one and the previous one is the wrong one.

Wikipedia *sigh* they aren't exactly reliable. When I was at uni we weren't allowed to use Wikipedia as it isn't a reliable source.


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## wrussell (Dec 31, 2014)

It is not good practice to lodge a visa application that includes a document that will ensure the application must be refused. Having done this, it is worse neglect not to take professional advice about possible alternate strategies (of which there are probably several) should the review body not be persuaded to intervene.

and

There might be more than one reason for a visa being refused. If there is more than one, case officers do not as a rule publish all the available reasons for a refusal. It is quite annoying to have a reason for refusal set aside and for the review body to find another one, or for the DIBP to do so and refuse again.

Have fun.


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## AusIndo (Apr 28, 2015)

Mish said:


> ...Wikipedia *sigh* they aren't exactly reliable. When I was at uni we weren't allowed to use Wikipedia as it isn't a reliable source.


Really Mish??? I rely on Wikipedia especially when it gets to visa review at tribunal level. &#128540;

In all seriousness though, the OP is backed up by his law friends and not willing to engage the services of an RMA because this case is simple for him as stated in one of his previous posts.


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

I would differ that is simple due to the fact he now has 2 certificates with different dates.

DIBP could think one is fraudulent?

When you have 2 documents with different dates things start to get messy as that is when fraudulent allegations can start.

Believe it or not we had some people at uni that thought that Wikipedia was a credible sourse.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

howka said:


> I believe writing that dispute letter in the format of a law essay will make my argument more presentable.
> 
> I will use IRAC which I learnt form my law course to wirte my dispute letter.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRAC


Be carefull, every case is different and even though your friend may now be a solicitor they may have little understanding of migration regulations. 
Also it is worth remembering the old legal adage, "A person who represents themselves has a fool for a client"


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## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

As I mentioned before, these two documents are both authentic and genuine. So there is no reason for the tribunal to suspect one of them is fraudulent. The only question they will ask is which one should they consider to determine my actual completion date.

My direction is to prove that both date are also the official completion date that states I have completed my course requirements. Since the date of 10 DEC is obtained before the 5 DEC, the applicant have reasonable reason to determine the later date is the completion date at the time he made the application. Thus the inconsistency of the department should not compromise the applicant's interest and 10 Dec 2014 should be considerd as a valid date for proof of completion 

Now I am still in the progress to summarise the arguments that I have and hopefully I can find a case to support them. 

To be honest I am not worried about representing myself. AAT is not a format court and even though you hire a RMA, you still need to speak for yourself. The suggestion form RMA would be helpful but I still believe I can do it myself. Also, as I mention, if I lose, I only lose about 8 months of my visa time, it is not really a big deal for me now. I will save the money of hiring a RMA and use the money to do the IELTS test for 10 times, and hopefully I can get 7 each band then apply for the PR.

Also, about the Wikipedia, I did not say that I will cite any information on there in any of my formal letter or document. I was just trying to give you more information about the format that I am going to use. IRAC stands for Issues, Rules, Applications and Conclusion, these will be my main 4 sections for my dispute letter.


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## wrussell (Dec 31, 2014)

485 reviews are a piece of cake.

See: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/FCAFC/2015/115.html


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## AusIndo (Apr 28, 2015)

wrussell said:


> 485 reviews are a piece of cake. See: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/FCAFC/2015/115.html


Wow, that's super easy...Good luck OP!


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

AusIndo said:


> Wow, that's super easy...Good luck OP!


Super easy??? Did you see the number of counsels appearing for them!


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## AusIndo (Apr 28, 2015)

aussiesteve said:


> Super easy??? Did you see the number of counsels appearing for them!


aussiesteve...you're funny! I encourage you to read the whole thing from top to bottom than you'd understand my statement ;-)


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## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

Deleted!!!!!!


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## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

Guys, if you want to refer a case, please refer something relevant.

Like this one:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/FCA/2012/981.html

Also, before you suggest something please read through the whole case.

From point 1 to 9 is the background of the case. Point 10 to 29 is the actual laws which were quoted from a book!! 

Only from 29 to 35 is related to the arguments from the review applicant. And the rest is the interpretation from the judge which we have nothing to do with it.

For me, I am not new to reading case law, I have read many of them while I was studying law subjects back in uni, so I don't find my case which only related to one page of Migration Regulations would be considerd difficult.

The information which written in the case document is not very critical for us because they are just the process of how the judge interpret the laws and the background information to the case.

What I need to do in the tribunal review is to provide information and evidences regarding the case then convince the tribunal member to agree my argument , how to intercept the law is still relied on the tribunal member. So, this is not as complex as you think.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

AusIndo said:


> aussiesteve...you're funny! I encourage you to read the whole thing from top to bottom than you'd understand my statement ;-)


So the fact that the appelant employed had 2 counsel representing them is irrelevant?
If it was as easy as you say they could have represented themselves and have had no need to employ any counsel, though I did note one acted pro bono.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

howka said:


> Guys, if you want to refer a case, please refer something relevant.
> 
> Like this one:
> http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/cth/FCA/2012/981.html
> ...


That case looks far more favorable for you.


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## howka (Aug 26, 2015)

aussiesteve said:


> That case looks far more favorable for you.


Agree, but my case is in totally different situation. I have offical evidences to show my completion date is within 6 months. But this appellant just argued the completion date should be the date when he got informed he meet the requirement. If he had read and understnad the law, he would know that he had no chance to win. I think he was just trying to stay in Australia as long as he can, so that he insisted to appeal to the federal court.

I referred this case is to show that there is no ambiguity with the definition of completion date, if your evidences are strong and true, the case will become very very easy. But if you dont have a valid evidence, you will have no chance to win.

Anyway I dont want to argue with you guys if you still believe my case is complex.

Let's wait until I win the case, I will update this thread.


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## AusIndo (Apr 28, 2015)

aussiesteve said:


> So the fact that the appelant employed had 2 counsel representing them is irrelevant? If it was as easy as you say they could have represented themselves and have had no need to employ any counsel, though I did note one acted pro bono.


I still find it amusing that you still don't get my sarcasm! You should've read my previous post from top to bottom not the court case!

Anyways...moving along.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

AusIndo said:


> I still find it amusing that you still don't get my sarcasm! You should've read my previous post from top to bottom not the court case!
> 
> Anyways...moving along.


No i am sorry i didn't get your sarcasm despite reading your post from top to bottom. It might pay to make your point more succinct for the benifit for simple people like myself.


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## AusIndo (Apr 28, 2015)

aussiesteve said:


> ... for the benifit for simple people like myself.


Lol! Don't be too harsh on yourself!


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