# 820 refused - what next? so many issues



## kattym (Nov 15, 2015)

Bare with me as this will be a long post. I will give as much information about our case and my confusion towards the decision.

I'm the sponsor. my partner who is from Georgia, US and i applied for the parter visa 23 September 2014 and got response 2 days ago ( 13/11/2015 ) that it was refused.

Our situation.
We met in Guatemala Dec 2012 in a volunteer program and hit it off.We kept in daily contact and then
On 10 May 2013, she flew to australia - a ticket bought by myself for a 10 day trip which confirmed our feelings. She met my friends, family and flat mates and was confirmed as my girlfriend. From then we moved heaven and earth to be together. She was to finish a university degree and would move to Aus in Dec 2013. On August 2013 in uni break I flew over for a 10 day holiday. I met her family and friends.
Now from May 2013 to her arrival 27 Dec 2013 we didnt live together, to prove our relationship we had emails, texts, plane tickets and proof of our plans to be living together. we also had 6 stat decs from family and friends. 
She moved here on 27 Dec 2013 by 14 Feb 2014 we had signed a lease , have bills and a joint bank account.
Sept 2014 we applied for defacto visa. 
in the long wait we registered our relationship on 20th Oct 2015 with birth,deaths marriages. Way to late as since registering and waiting to 28 days, our 820 has been refused.

When we received the first letter from the case officer they pretty much said we didnt prove the defacto and sent along with a withdrawal application. confused we got a migration agent who looked over our application and said we should be fine to just gather more information ( for example transcripts from my partners uni proving her studies ) 
we gathered quite alot more info and had the migration agent respond.....
2 days later refusal.

i probably should mention we are a same sex couple. I have never felt this would be a problem, expect i feel more judged by the case officers response rather than the facts looked at. We tried to guess what they were looking for as almost all the responses contradict themselves.. We have such a huge amount of evidence and they said they agreed to that and then just said in their opinion we wern't in a defacto relationship. how our evidence proves otherwise is beyond me.

I know there was a case passed in the court in June of this year which changes the whole idea of HAVING to live together - as long as you are not apart for permanent periods of time, to prove defacto status which should help us.

Ive written as much but if you think you have some advice and have any questions im happy to answer.

QUESTIONS...
Our migration agent thinks we should take this to the appeals tribunal. Whats this process like?
Will we have our application looked at with a bit of care this time? 
Does anyone have anything they maybe used as evidence that was of great help?
Will us registering our relationship have any benefit?

OR can we just re apply for the partner visa? 
or do you only have the option of applying offshore?


----------



## firemansam (May 10, 2015)

Because when you applied in September, at the time of application you had not registered your relationship, you had failed to meet the 12 month living together requirement (the case you spoke about had not occurred when you had applied) so they saw it as you failing to meet the defacto requirements.

You needed to register your relationship before you had applied.

You really do need to speak to a good migration agent to guide you further from here. AAT can take up to 18 months and you will likely fail without the assistance of an agent.

If you decide to now take the decision you will have to lodge offshore as lodging onshore they will hit you with schedule 3 criteria which i doubt you would have compelling circumstances to have waived.
There are others on here which will be able to help you more


I wish you luck in the future, you have a long hard road ahead of you.


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

The problem was that you are no considered de facto until you started living together which in your case was December 2013. At the time you lodged in September 2014 you were not de facto for 12 months.

Even if you look at the court case you were not de facto for 12 months regardless if you lived together or no after December 2013 or not. DIBP take anything prior to be dating so visiting your partner is just classed as dating.

You lodge another application onshore now it will subject to schedule 3 which is very hard to beat. If your partner can get a tourist visa the better option would the better option however with a recent rejection they may not grant one. You can always give it a try.

Regarding registering your relationship for de facto it is usually before the decision is made on the case but the question is can you use it for AAT? That I do not know sorry. Maybe one of the agents on this forum can help with that one. I am guessing it could also come down to what is the date on the certificate. Did you provide them with the receipt when you registered it?

Also it is not that you are a same sex couple it is that you didn't meet the requirements that is why it was rejected.


----------



## kattym (Nov 15, 2015)

I'm still kind of confused, can you direct me to where it states there is a 12month living together requirement?

also, can we apply for this visa offshore? All i see is the one where you have to get married....


----------



## JandE (Jul 17, 2015)

You applied for a visa after just 9 months living together when the rules needed 12 months. 

When we were at the 10 month living together point we were told that a partner visa would be refused.
We needed the full 12 months.è


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/801-

It says "de facto for 12 months" and says separation is only temporary. The problem is you did not commence de facto until dec 2013 so you were not de facto for 12 months.

You can start de facto and have to be apart for a few months but it still has to be at least 12 months have you first started living together.

The offshore visa is 309 which is de facto or spouse.


----------



## kattym (Nov 15, 2015)

thank you, we have a meeting this week with the migration agent who replied for us so I want to have as much info to talk to him about so all this is really good info thank you. 

Is it worth getting a couple of opinions from a few migration agents? i know it will be expensive but ill pay if its worth it..


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

I would get a few opinions and go from there. Just make sure they are registered. Then go with who you are comfortable with. There are a few registered agents that also post on this forum that are very good.


----------



## Lunabelle (Oct 5, 2015)

kattym said:


> thank you, we have a meeting this week with the migration agent who replied for us so I want to have as much info to talk to him about so all this is really good info thank you.
> 
> Is it worth getting a couple of opinions from a few migration agents? i know it will be expensive but ill pay if its worth it..


Make sure they know what they're talking about! Mish had suggested a very good idea: some registered agents who frequently answer questions in this forum are very good. Don't just throw your money without researching (Googling) about their reputation 

Best of luck kattym!


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

oh no...

I'm kinda in the same situation, I have not registered my relationship yet and plan to apply for a 820 visa in december.. and thought we wouldn't need it..
i guess we do before we apply?

we've been renting since May 2015 but the relationship goes back to 2011
going overseas on & off and girlfriend currently doing advanced english classes as a student.

this really worries me..

please keep us updated OP

Thanks


----------



## kattym (Nov 15, 2015)

yes register your relationship. I have so much regret not doing it earlier.


----------



## Cindyxx (Sep 7, 2014)

kwonsiie said:


> oh no...
> 
> I'm kinda in the same situation, I have not registered my relationship yet and plan to apply for a 820 visa in december.. and thought we wouldn't need it..
> i guess we do before we apply?
> ...


If you're worried about your situation, just register your relationship and then apply for the partner visa. Going overseas now and then, I don't think case officer will classify it's living together


----------



## JandE (Jul 17, 2015)

kwonsiie said:


> oh no...
> and girlfriend currently doing advanced english classes


Your use of the word "girlfriend" indicates dating, not a relationship.

You need to prove relationship after dating.


----------



## firemansam (May 10, 2015)

yes, using the term "girlfriend" or "boyfriend" whilst applying for a defacto visa isn't the smartest idea. Good way to pique the interest of your case officer.


----------



## Lunabelle (Oct 5, 2015)

firemansam said:


> yes, using the term "girlfriend" or "boyfriend" whilst applying for a defacto visa isn't the smartest idea. Good way to pique the interest of your case officer.


That is true, I'm studying criminology and in interogations / statements, pronoun doesn't lie


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

Cindyxx said:


> If you're worried about your situation, just register your relationship and then apply for the partner visa. Going overseas now and then, I don't think case officer will classify it's living together


yea, i think i should do that right away.

met in 2011 lived together in shared accommodation in 2012
then lived at my parents for 2months due to injury and no $$$

we went to her country "south korea" with her when her WHV ended in 2013 i think, and then i came back after 3 months (due to my visa)
(maintained contact)

then i went back to korea a year and 3 months later to see her, and stayed with her family (traveled around korea)

and she came back on ETA after 2 months with me and after 2 months and a half she got a student visa granted for advanced english classes

and then we started rent in may 2015 (in my name, the real estate said we couldn't have both names..)
got the gas in her name.

now i just need the registry....

does anyone think i would have problems after the registry?
i believe i can get enough evidence.

getting really nervous...


----------



## JandE (Jul 17, 2015)

kwonsiie said:


> then we started rent in may 2015 (in my name, the real estate said we couldn't have both names..)
> got the gas in her name....


Strange about Real Estate not allowing both names.

We got rental in both names easily. The government rental bond in both names was also useful.


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

JandE said:


> Strange about Real Estate not allowing both names.
> 
> We got rental in both names easily. The government rental bond in both names was also useful.


yeah, i thought that was weird too...
i hope it wont cause problems..

and thank you for the heads up on the term "girlfriend & boyfriend"
should i be using the term partner?


----------



## Cindyxx (Sep 7, 2014)

kwonsiie said:


> yea, i think i should do that right away.
> 
> met in 2011 lived together in shared accommodation in 2012
> then lived at my parents for 2months due to injury and no $$$
> ...


I will definitely recommend you to register your relationship as it's a quite easy process but can make a big difference. Personally my partner and I registered our relationship but still waited until we physically lived entire 12 months to apply for my partner visa. When I look back, I kind of regret that 
we waited extra months that makes my eligible date for permanent viva a few months late. But it's helpful on gathering evidence perspective because who gather evidence when you just normally in a relationship? Lol


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

Cindyxx said:


> I will definitely recommend you to register your relationship as it's a quite easy process but can make a big difference. Personally my partner and I registered our relationship but still waited until we physically lived entire 12 months to apply for my partner visa. When I look back, I kind of regret that
> we waited extra months that makes my eligible date for permanent viva a few months late. But it's helpful on gathering evidence perspective because who gather evidence when you just normally in a relationship? Lol


we were talking about it and my partner said she thinks we dont need it plus apparantly we didnt have the family registration extract
and then my partner went back to her country 2 days ago due to family reasons for a month and she took her debit card and obviously passport
and just now i barraged through our papers and found the extract with the apostille on it (in korean)
and now we have to get the passport and debit card certified in korea.....
why does this happen...


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

kwonsiie said:


> and and then we started rent in may 2015 (in my name, the real estate said we couldn't have both names..)
> got the gas in her name.


Is that all the evidence you have living together? If so it is lacking abit.

Get the gas changed to joint names. Phone bill, internet etc get them in joint names, if not make sure they are at the same address. If you have a car get her as an additional driver on the car insurance.

Personally I would be registering your relationship.


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

Mish said:


> Is that all the evidence you have living together? If so it is lacking abit.
> 
> Get the gas changed to joint names. Phone bill, internet etc get them in joint names, if not make sure they are at the same address. If you have a car get her as an additional driver on the car insurance.
> 
> Personally I would be registering your relationship.


Agl told me they couldnt have 2 people on 1 account
So we have 2
Elec in mine
Gas in hers
Internet in my name
Phones in my name but her number is there with mine
We do have a joint account since 2012
All bills are paid from the joint account
We dont even have a personal one we just use the 1
We have concert tickets
Plane tickets with proof of purchase
admission to theme parks personal letters
Photos with friends and family
Trips around korea with photos from everywhere we went to

Does flybuys to same address count?
Her super my super to our address
Daily expenses, gifts etc on our bank statement

Do we need more?
Other than the stat decs and aspects of the household?


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

Interesting ... we are with AGL and ours is in a joint name. We use to be with Origin and they use to have "joint name" and then my husband's name next to it.

Do you have wills or each other listed as super beneficiary?

Both having flybuys and other loyalty cards that is linked is good too.

What about joint purchases as in fridge, washing machine etc?

What about any joint insurance ie. House insurance.

Mail at the same address?


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

We plan to put our names as beneficiaries
And yes
We do have joint purchase for household items
And sadly we cannot afford personal insurances except for her student insurance
And yes mail at the same address
Although the only mail we receive is things we buy off the net since all the bills are online now

Could anyone tell me how the form 888 should work? I posted a thread but have no answers 
Thanks alot


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

888's you need a minimum of 2 and need to be Australian citizens or permanent residents and are from the people that know your relationship best.

On a non-immigration note ... you said you can't afford home insurance, what happens if the place burnt down tomorrow? I know it seems expensive but you need to think of how you would replace the items if the place burnt down tomorrow.


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

Mish said:


> 888's you need a minimum of 2 and need to be Australian citizens or permanent residents and are from the people that know your relationship best.
> 
> On a non-immigration note ... you said you can't afford home insurance, what happens if the place burnt down tomorrow? I know it seems expensive but you need to think of how you would replace the items if the place burnt down tomorrow.


But when i get the said people to write out the 888 form do i need them to get the certifications?
Or can i do it after collecting all of the forms from them.
But then again theu would need a certified copy of their proof of residence right?

As for no home insurance.
We're barely getting by with collecting the money for the 820 so we cannot afford it as of right now..


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

They need to get them witnessed by a JP or appropriate person themselves. If you are applying online they need their ID certified too unless they scan the original for you in colour.


----------



## ausharrold (Oct 28, 2015)

Mish said:


> 888's
> On a non-immigration note ... you said you can't afford home insurance, what happens if the place burnt down tomorrow? I know it seems expensive but you need to think of how you would replace the items if the place burnt down tomorrow.


I thought they said they are renting, if the house burns down it is not their problem. Usually if you rent you have contents insurance, for your own property.

I tried to get the electricity in both names and AGL said no.


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

ausharrold said:


> I thought they said they are renting, if the house burns down it is not their problem. Usually if you rent you have contents insurance, for your own property.
> 
> I tried to get the electricity in both names and AGL said no.


Correct I was talking about contents because that is all you have when you rent. He has no house insurance so if the house burns down they lose everything because they have no insurance.

When you say house insurance it can refer to either house and contents or contents only.

I guess we are lucky then to have AGL in both names.


----------



## Visa Guy (Mar 25, 2015)

The only issue I see, you didn't register your relationship in time before decision. Otherwise the 12 month rule wouldn't have applied to you.

Whether you could win at AAT, they are allowed to accept new evidence. The certificate you get for your relationship will have a date on it. Find someone who can clarify this date for your success.


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

Mish said:


> They need to get them witnessed by a JP or appropriate person themselves. If you are applying online they need their ID certified too unless they scan the original for you in colour.


so i dont need their residence proof to be certified if i'm doing it online?
cause i was planning on doing it online anyway.

that would make things so much easier as everyone i know is very busy to go to a JP


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

kwonsiie said:


> so i dont need their residence proof to be certified if i'm doing it online?
> cause i was planning on doing it online anyway.
> 
> that would make things so much easier as everyone i know is very busy to go to a JP


Correct for the proof of citizenship or residence but they still need to go to a JP or other witness type person to get the 888 witnessed.


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

Mish said:


> Correct for the proof of citizenship or residence but they still need to go to a JP or other witness type person to get the 888 witnessed.


just to clarify,
witnessing and JP are the same thing?
and also
my previous work manager hired both my partner and I when she was on WHV but is not a permanent resident yet.
how can i got about getting a statement from him?
does it have to be only PR and Citizens for form 888?


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

A JP does the witnessing.

The work manager can do a stat dec/statement but the 888's are only counted for PR and citizens.


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

Sorry i have 1 more last question and i'll stop bothering you Mish ;(

I would like to get a statement from my partners mother and sister too
they live in South Korea,

Would i need to have the original hand written document (in Korean)
to get the english translated version certified?

or

can i just take the translated one and get it certified?

Thanks alot Mish


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

Usually when they are translated it is certified as an original at the same time - that is what happened when my husband's documents were translated.


----------



## chicken999 (May 2, 2013)

Agl do only put account in o e name but how you get found that us you ask them to put your partners name as the first line of your address Ie Chicken Donna Chicken kobo 2/23 blah st Blah blah qld 4221 Sent from my iPad using Australia


Agl actually suggested this to me


----------



## Solicitor Sam (Nov 16, 2015)

Hi KattyM, for the purposes of the Migration Act & refusal, the fact you are both women has no bearing. There are a couple of different options available to you both, which would need proper Legal Advice, with respect to the current time restrictions that will now be in place, potential prospects of an Appeal and/or new Visa options/applications. Administrative Law is very complex in Nature as is our Immigration System wrong or ill informed advice can ruin people's lives. I would be happy to assist and personally understand how it feels to be in the Australian Immigration Nightmare.


----------



## panda (Mar 28, 2013)

kwonsiie said:


> oh no...
> 
> .. and thought we wouldn't need it..
> i guess we do before we apply?


Not to be mean but why you wouldn't think you need it. No matter how much you love your partner or how much your true love is. There is a check list which you MUST pass before lodging your application.

IMMI could of just refuse after 30 second look at those application who failed to satisfy the 12 month living together requirement.


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

chicken999 said:


> Agl do only put account in o e name but how you get found that us you ask them to put your partners name as the first line of your address Ie Chicken Donna Chicken kobo 2/23 blah st Blah blah qld 4221 Sent from my iPad using Australia
> 
> Agl actually suggested this to me


That is what we did with Foxtel!

No idea how we got a joint bill though. My only thought was that it was how we opened it up. Who knows....


----------



## staceys (Nov 16, 2015)

I would also like some help on this subject.

I am currently putting our 820 together and don't want to be refused over this.

So since we met in April 2014 we have been traveling between uk and Australia. And we are classing as starting our defacto in early June 14. We have had a couple separation periods where he has stayed in Australia and I have been in the uk due to visas. 

So what can they class as dating cause from june14 it was decided on his trip to the uk one of us would move. I can't register our relationship here in Victoria as I've not got the proof of being a resident there for 12months.


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

panda said:


> Not to be mean but why you wouldn't think you need it. No matter how much you love your partner or how much your true love is. There is a check list which you MUST pass before lodging your application.
> 
> IMMI could of just refuse after 30 second look at those application who failed to satisfy the 12 month living together requirement.


well..
given that i was living with her at her house in korea before coming back to australia and then living under parents roof until we found a house to rent and us considering ourselves defacto since 2013 and up when we hit december we would have been living together for 12 months...

maybe the my thoughts were wrong
glad i came to ask in this forum

on another note,
i'll get the registration done.
can i apply for subclass 820 as soon as i get the certificate?


----------



## panda (Mar 28, 2013)

kwonsiie said:


> well..
> given that i was living with her at her house in korea before coming back to australia and then living under parents roof until we found a house to rent and us considering ourselves defacto since 2013 and up when we hit december we would have been living together for 12 months...


as long as you can prove it, thats fine.



kwonsiie said:


> maybe the my thoughts were wrong
> glad i came to ask in this forum


second look from other's eyes is always good



kwonsiie said:


> on another note,
> i'll get the registration done.
> can i apply for subclass 820 as soon as i get the certificate?


It is one of conditions which you should pass, once you ticked all the list and got the certificate, you the ready to lodge. Good luck and welcome to the waiting game


----------



## panda (Mar 28, 2013)

staceys said:


> I would also like some help on this subject.
> 
> I am currently putting our 820 together and don't want to be refused over this.
> 
> ...


it confused me when reading you question. Can I please rephrase it

1. April 14: you both met
2. June 14: you moved in and have lived with each other in the same house, same billing address?

If you say yes at question 2. then you met 12 months requirement

Note: how long in total for "couple of separation" ? You have to prove that how did you maintain contact.

Just FYI, please provide as much information as possible so you can get the answer quick and straight.


----------



## JandE (Jul 17, 2015)

staceys said:


> So since we met in April 2014 we have been traveling between uk and Australia. And we are classing as starting our defacto in early June 14. We have had a couple separation periods where he has stayed in Australia and I have been in the uk due to visas.
> 
> So what can they class as dating cause from june14 it was decided on his trip to the uk one of us would move. I can't register our relationship here in Victoria as I've not got the proof of being a resident there for 12months.


How long can you PROVE that you have lived together?

Dating ends when you move in together (normally). Otherwise we would have gone dIrect to partner visa rather than PMV, by using an earlier date.

But it all comes down to what you can prove to immigration.


----------



## staceys (Nov 16, 2015)

panda said:


> it confused me when reading you question. Can I please rephrase it
> 
> 1. April 14: you both met
> 2. June 14: you moved in and have lived with each other in the same house, same billing address?
> ...


Sorry maybe I rushed my question.
So in June he came on a holiday visa to uk and stayed 3 months with me in my parents house there is nothing to I guess prove that other than stat decs. He left end of August to go back to Aus then returned back to uk in December. We both returned to Australia in January and lived with his parents, before I returned to the uk at the end of May to return to Australia again in September. We kept in touch by what's app FaceTime and fb msg during every separation. Since I was only on tourist visas I couldn't stay longer really I needed to go home and earn money. It's been total of 46 weeks living with each other but in my parents or his. He had no mail delivered in the uk. But I have had a few things here. We have a joint account but that could be as far as that evidence goes. I don't know what other information to give. This whole visa confuses me. Please ask questions.
Do you think this will all count as a defacto?
And will not having our relationship registered be a big issue. Since I can't apply for it that's out of my control


----------



## syd (May 13, 2014)

Being apart due to visa restrictions (many people are a part for these reasons) is a bit hard to prove as temporary separation- your primary residence is elsewhere. If both individuals have set up house in one country (primary residence: shared lease, bills, accounts, mail redirected there etc) but one has to be away for short periods for work etc then such couples are likely to meet the requirements fairly easily. Even in these cases it can be tricky if you don't present your case carefully.

If you were simply visiting each other in each others country for a few months at a time,(with large periods of separation and primary residence elsewhere) you are likely to face rejection.

Don't set yourself up for a very expensive disappointment. It's not when you think your defacto relationship started...It's when you can prove it with concrete evidence in accordance with DIBP's regulations.

At the very least, have your case reviewed by a reputable RMA, before submitting application. A review is only a few hundred bucks.


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

So i just got my partners "family relation certificate" translated.
but then the translator told me that it doesn't state the "place of birth"
and said i probably would need the "identification certificate" that does state birth place

does BDM require the document to state the place of birth for relationship registry?
the "family relation certificate" has the 

*partners name
*parents name
*all 3 social security number
* all 3 DOB
*registration base
*gender


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

*Is this okay?*

Hey guys!

Bear with me as this post might be a bit lengthy. I'm going to give you a rough idea on the evidence in the relationship I have with my partner and would like thoughts / advise on the matter. We are a De Facto couple.

*Evidence:*
1) We started living together in January 2013, (I was paying rent and bond so didn't think it necessary to have her name in the lease)
2) We have access to each other's bank accounts and I am on a supplementary card from her. (We didn't think it was necessary to open a Joint bank account as we could access each other's account easily either via Internet / mobile)
3) We moved house in 2015 and decided to add her name to the lease agreement in July. We also opened a joint bank account in July 2015. 
4) She has me listed as her 100% beneficiary in her super. (I do not have a super account hence do not have her listed as my beneficiary)
5) Both our car insurance is registered at our current address
6) We recently bought a piece of land where we plan to start building our house in November 2017. This would be our permanent home where we stay and have kids. The asset is in both our names (A migration agent we consulted mentioned that this is very solid evidence)
7) We have tons of joint purchases as we both use the same credit cards AND bank accounts (tvs, computers, ipad, iphones, groceries, food, petrol, bills, rent, etc etc)
8) We can get stat decs from both PRs and Citizens who can testify that our relationship is ongoing and legitimate
9) We have A TON of pictures of us being together on social media dating back to 2011
10) We have evidence of travelling together (both interstate and internationally)
11) We have evidence of us being invited to events together as a couple (birthdays, weddings)
12) Currently, utilities such as electricity, gas and Internet are in my name (will consider adding her name to it if possible)

As I mentioned above, we had her name added to the lease officially and opened a joint bank account in July 2015. We plan to then apply for an 820 visa in July 2016 (following the rules and waiting for at least 12 months)

*My Questions:*
1) What are your thoughts on our evidence (are they solid enough)?
2) Do you reckon we could apply for the 820 earlier instead of having to wait till July 2016?

***PS, we're living in South Australia and therefore not able to register our De Facto relationship.*

Thanks and best regards,
Zack


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

Your evidence is great! If you have evidence of living together prior to the joint lease then you can apply or earlier, or if you get married. Evidence can be mail at the same address, declaring each other as de facto partner on your tax return etc.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> Your evidence is great! If you have evidence of living together prior to the joint lease then you can apply or earlier, or if you get married. Evidence can be mail at the same address, declaring each other as de facto partner on your tax return etc.


Unfortunately we don't  This is because her parents live REALLY close to where I was living. She was living with them before moving in with me and didn't see it necessary to change the address on letters and stuff because we could easily take a 5 minute drive to her previous home and grab her mail (also while visiting her parents).

Due to this, do you think it'll be safest to wait till July 2016? Or do you think we still have sufficient evidence to lodge an application earlier? The migration agent we consulted mentioned that we should wait till July 2016 and actually get her name in the lease and open a joint bank account (which we did in July 2015). Another migration agent however said that our evidence is sufficient and we can apply for it now. The last thing we'd want is to have our application refused because of a stupid reason of not adhering to the check-list.

Also, how many stat decs would you suggest we get?


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

I would say wait then if you have no evidence of living together prior. The issue is even though you have lots of good evidence you are missing evidence of the key requirement for de facto - de facto for 12 months and proof of it.

Stat decs there is minimum of 2. It is up to you if you want to do more.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> I would say wait then if you have no evidence of living together prior. The issue is even though you have lots of good evidence you are missing evidence of the key requirement for de facto - de facto for 12 months and proof of it.
> 
> Stat decs there is minimum of 2. It is up to you if you want to do more.


Fair enough. Thanks for your advise Mish and will wait till July 2016 to apply.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Oh Mish, a simple question from me. Would you suggest submitting the application via post / on-line?


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

Online definitely. The reason for that is alot of docs don't need to be certified and you can add updated evidence every few months if you want to.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> Online definitely. The reason for that is alot of docs don't need to be certified and you can add updated evidence every few months if you want to.


Sounds good. Online it is. What example of docs wouldn't need to be certified if it is done online? I understand via post, most of my ID copies and such would need to be certified true copy. If via online, I can just scan in my documents? *I apologize if my questions are naive.

I was going to ask you if via post, how do I submit a physical copy of my health examination which I would do prior to submitting the application.


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

The only thing that needs to be certified is if you don't have the original for example someone's ID for the 888 (unless they scan it for you).

They must be colour scanned to avoid certifying.

Sorry I am unsure about the health. My husband's was done offshore and it was requested after the application was received.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> The only thing that needs to be certified is if you don't have the original for example someone's ID for the 888 (unless they scan it for you).
> 
> They must be colour scanned to avoid certifying.
> 
> Sorry I am unsure about the health. My husband's was done offshore and it was requested after the application was received.


Oh wow I learnt something new from you. I didn't know you could avoid certifying if it's colour scanned. Thanks!

I also intend to submit my Malaysian police check and have my health exams done before submitting my application so they would not need to come back and ask me for more information. Would you advise against this?


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

Only problem is that if it takes over 12 months they can ask for you to submit new ones. We usually recommend that people wait a few months after submitting the application to cover that.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> Only problem is that if it takes over 12 months they can ask for you to submit new ones. We usually recommend that people wait a few months after submitting the application to cover that.


That makes sense. So submit application + police check.

Do the health exam *after* submitting the application. Noted.

Thanks for your advise Mish!


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

Bump on my question anyone? ;(


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

You can apply as soon as you register the relationship. However I have heard you just need to have the relationship registered before a decision has been made (that option is risky if leaving it 6 months or more).


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish, say someone with similar evidence and background as the one I provided earlier in my first post, but not living together due to religious reasons. Can they still apply for the 820 as a De Facto couple? I've heard that they made certain exclusions for those who aren't living together but have good substantial evidence of their commitment to each other before getting married and then only staying together.
Stat decs can be given by the Pastor / Religious Leader and the parents of the applicant / sponsor regarding religion and staying together? Would that help?


Your thoughts on this?


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

My personal opinion is no. Why do you ask? Because if they are a religious person then they will get married and they can apply based on being a married couple.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> My personal opinion is no. Why do you ask? Because if they are a religious person then they will get married and they can apply based on being a married couple.


From what I know, they aren't ready to get married though they have committed their lives and intend to have a future together. It's my close friend actually and she's in the same boat as me just that they *aren't allowed to live together*. They were thinking of applying for the 820 via De Facto and only get married in the future when they're ready.

Not advisable ey?


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

I wouldn't advise of it. De facto is essentially the same as spouse that you live together. If you can't live together then it is just dating.

If they aren't ready to get married then they can't demonstrate that level of commitment since they are neither de facto or spouses.


----------



## Canegirl (Oct 7, 2013)

ZackW said:


> That makes sense. So submit application + police check. Do the health exam after submitting the application. Noted. Thanks for your advise Mish!


I'd wait on the police checks too. I would submit them at the same time as the health exam.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Canegirl said:


> I'd wait on the police checks too. I would submit them at the same time as the health exam.


Noted. How long do police checks last for? Can't seem to google it.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> I wouldn't advise of it. De facto is essentially the same as spouse that you live together. If you can't live together then it is just dating.
> 
> If they aren't ready to get married then they can't demonstrate that level of commitment since they are neither de facto or spouses.


Mish, my partner and I might consider getting married as in signing the papers so I can then apply for the 820 instead of waiting for the 12 months. Do we need pictures of the wedding? We won't have the ceremony yet but just the signing of the legal papers. Not sure if we need to provide pictures of that as well.


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

It is best to have some photos.

Police checks last for 12 months.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> It is best to have some photos.
> 
> Police checks last for 12 months.


Alright! I have one last question. Upon applying for an 820, we're granted a BV-A correct. If i'm currently on my student visa, that would be the BV-A is tied to the student visa.

If my student visa ends / gets revoked due to completion / delay on studies, would that make cancel my BV-A as well?


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

If your student visa ends as in when it is suppose to then the BVA kicks it when that expires.

If your student visa gets cancel then you lose your BVA and then will have a BVE. BVE is a bad visa. You don't have any travel or work rights and have to apply for work rights. Also you will lose all the time you have spent in Australia towards citizenship so once the BVE is granted that is day 1 of your count towards citizenship.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> If your student visa ends as in when it is suppose to then the BVA kicks it when that expires.
> 
> If your student visa gets cancel then you lose your BVA and then will have a BVE. BVE is a bad visa. You don't have any travel or work rights and have to apply for work rights. Also you will lose all the time you have spent in Australia towards citizenship so once the BVE is granted that is day 1 of your count towards citizenship.


I see. If say I replaced my student visa with an ETA which I applied for offshore then applied for the 820, would the BVA be tied to the ETA visa? The same rules apply so the BVA would kick in when the ETA ends correct?

Also for the BVE, you lose time toward citizenship only or for PR as well?


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

That one you will need to post in Ask Mark about. I would assume that having been in Australia on a student visa they would be reluctant to grant a ETA when the student visa is still active.

The BVE only affects citizenship.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> That one you will need to post in Ask Mark about. I would assume that having been in Australia on a student visa they would be reluctant to grant a ETA when the student visa is still active.
> 
> The BVE only affects citizenship.


Noted, I've spoken to Mark about this and he feels that I might not be able to get an ETA due to the fact that I currently hold a Student Visa 573. I've done research and have had multiple migration agents tell me it is possible and it isn't. I even rang DIBP and they told me on a 573, if I'm offshore, I can apply for an ETA and I could get it. They did not comment on the probability of getting one however.

If an ETA is granted, would they be able to review it a few days after and revoke the ETA though? I believe ETAs are granted via an automated system (since responses are almost instant for most cases). Would I have gotten my ETA and a few days later receive an email from them stating that they have revoked my ETA visa? Is that possible?


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

DIBP call centre staff are not the most reliable people. They just take the phone calls they don't process the applications.

I don't know much about how ETA's but I would assume they would have some kind of triggers in the system to stop it if it finds something. They can however stop you at the airport coming into Australia and if they don't believe you are a genuine tourist cancel your ETA at the border.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> DIBP call centre staff are not the most reliable people. They just take the phone calls they don't process the applications.
> 
> I don't know much about how ETA's but I would assume they would have some kind of triggers in the system to stop it if it finds something. They can however stop you at the airport coming into Australia and if they don't believe you are a genuine tourist cancel your ETA at the border.


On a side note, would it be better to apply for a Prospective Marriage Visa 300 instead of an ETA then after getting married, apply for the Partner Visa 820? I noticed you applied for a PMV as well before you did your PV.


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

That is up to you but just be aware that if you get a ETA after you apply for it you can't work. It can take up to 12 months for a PMV to be approved.

No options to continue with your studies?


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> That is up to you but just be aware that if you get a ETA after you apply for it you can't work. It can take up to 12 months for a PMV to be approved.
> 
> No options to continue with your studies?


I see. You're not allowed to work while on the ETA visa right?

I plan to put my studies on hold and continue it in the future. It's too expensive at the moment and I would need to hold out for 3 more semesters to complete it. That's about $40000 worth of fees. 

Actually, right now, would I be able to just cancel my student visa then apply for a Bridging Visa E and then wait till I get married or till July 2016 to apply for the Partner visa 820? I wouldn't mind not working and travelling for the time being.


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

Nope because once you cancel your student visa you would be given 28 days to leave the country or lodge another visa. Even if this was not an issue to apply for an 820 if you are on a bridging visa you are subject to schedule 3 and they are very hard to beat.

Correct you can't work on an ETA.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> Nope because once you cancel your student visa you would be given 28 days to leave the country or lodge another visa.  Even if this was not an issue to apply for an 820 if you are on a bridging visa you are subject to schedule 3 and they are very hard to beat.
> 
> Correct you can't work on an ETA.


Oh wait, can I then cancel my student visa THEN apply for the 820 and be granted BV-A?

I was considering either applying for 820 then cancelling student visa or cancelling first then applying for the 820.


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

No because they will put you a BVA when you cancel the student visa which will make you subject to schedule 3 which is very hard to beat.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> No because they will put you a BVA when you cancel the student visa which will make you subject to schedule 3 which is very hard to beat.


Sorry but you mean if I were to cancel my student visa first THEN apply for the 820, i'll be given BVA but subject to schedule 3?


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

Correct. Once you cancel the student visa they will give you a BVA if you apply for a 820 when you are on a BVA you are subject to schedule 3. The chances of a successful 820 application when you are subject to schedule 3 are very slim.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> Correct. Once you cancel the student visa they will give you a BVA if you apply for a 820 when you are on a BVA you are subject to schedule 3. The chances of a successful 820 application when you are subject to schedule 3 are very slim.


Thanks for clarifying. So my best bet would to then apply for the 820 first THEN only cancel my student visa. I would then need to apply for BVE but as long as I'm fine with not travelling / working, it shouldn't be a problem. Correct?


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

Correct but you can apply for work rights and they may or may not grant them.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> Correct but you can apply for work rights and they may or may not grant them.


Cool. Thanks Mish. That would be my safest bet I reckon instead of going offshore and applying for an ETA.

The thing with the ETA that i'm worried about is even if they grant me one, it replaces my student visa and at the border if they revoke my ETA, I would need to enter on my student visa but since it's been replaced, it's no longer valid and I would've just shot myself in the foot by applying for the ETA. Haha.


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

Does it count to be in a defacto relationship when both my partner and i are at a parents house till we find a home to rent?
also

does the sponsor sign anywhere on form 47sp?
it only shows
main applicant and
dependent applicant

do i NEED a form 80?


----------



## panda (Mar 28, 2013)

kwonsiie said:


> Does it count to be in a defacto relationship when both my partner and i are at a parents house till we find a home to rent?


No -> There are lot more than that to be consider as in a defacto relationship

For the purposes of a Partner visa application, a person is in a de facto relationship with another person if:
• they are not in a married relationship (for the purposes of the Migration Act 1958) with each other;
• they are not related by family;
• they have a mutual commitment to a shared life to the exclusion of all others;
• the relationship between them is genuine and continuing; and
• they live together or do not live separately and apart on a permanent basis.
In addition:
• they both must be aged at least 18 years at the time the application is made;
• the relationship must have continued for the 12 months immediately preceding the date of application.
Note: The 12-month relationship requirement does not apply in certain circumstances

However, It could count as living together if you both are living in your parents or his parents' house. Key point to remember this: no matter where you live, in a hotel room or in your aunty's house, as long as you live TOGETHER with your partner



kwonsiie said:


> does the sponsor sign anywhere on form 47sp?
> it only shows main applicant and dependent applicant


No-> because this form is for someone who is not Australian, who is seeking sponsor from an OZ, so an OZ does not need to sign anywhere in this form. In fact, there is form call 40SP where an OZ signs and you do not need to sign



kwonsiie said:


> do i NEED a form 80?


yes you do NEED form 80 if you are seeking sponsor from your partner.

I would suggest you do more research or hire a MARA, because trust me, I did all by my own and when you ask for form 47sp, i don't remember what it is, all I did is google.

hope this help and good luck


----------



## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

kwonsiie said:


> do i NEED a form 80?


Form 80 is not mandatory, and is often not requested. However if it is requested, it can take a while to complete due to the level of detail involved. I'd suggest the applicant complete it and then it's up to you whether you submit it right away or wait to see if your CO asks for it.


----------



## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

panda said:


> yes you do NEED form 80 if you are seeking sponsor from your partner.


Form 80 has nothing to do with sponsorship. It's often requested from applicants who originate from or have traveled to high risk countries, but not always.


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

Okay so i guess it does count that i was living with her in korea in her parents home and then coming to aus together and living in my parents home for 3 months then finally renting a place for ourselves
There are no gaps in between so it should be fine right?
And does maintaining contact through fb kakaotalk and everything for contact in between seperations need to be translated in english by naati approved?
Thats alot of money if i have to get everything translated


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

kwonsiie said:


> Okay so i guess it does count that i was living with her in korea in her parents home and then coming to aus together and living in my parents home for 3 months then finally renting a place for ourselves
> There are no gaps in between so it should be fine right?


From the sound of it, yes it sounds like you guys are living together. You can move a hundred places as long as you're both together it's fine.


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

It all comea down to if you have evidence to prove it. If you lived together and have no evidence it will be hard to convince DIBP.

To my knowledge everything in foreign languages needs to be translated into English.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> It all comea down to if you have evidence to prove it. If you lived together and have no evidence it will be hard to convince DIBP


Mish, we started to change all of my partner's addresses and details on the 7th of July 2015 and I advised the leasing agent on adding my partner's name to the lease agreement on the 13th of July 2015.

I have mentioned before that we were living together prior to this however most of her mail went back to her Parents house as we did not see it a reason to change the address as it was really close and we could visit her parents as well.

Would you advise applying for the 820 on the 7th of July 2016 or 13th of July 2016?


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

okay thanks guys
does black and white certified copies work when i register relationship?


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

ZackW said:


> Would you advise applying for the 820 on the 7th of July 2016 or 13th of July 2016?


Personally I prefer to err on the side of caution and I would go with 13th July.


----------



## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

kwonsiie said:


> okay thanks guys
> does black and white certified copies work when i register relationship?


It should be okay.


----------



## ZackW (Nov 18, 2015)

Mish said:


> Personally I prefer to err on the side of caution and I would go with 13th July.


I was just advised today that my partner's name will effectively be added to the lease on the 19th of December 2015 (I commenced the lease on the 19th of December 2014) only. However, I advised the agent about adding my partner's name on the 13th of July.

How do I go about this? Do I get the agent to write a Stat Dec saying that she was advised on the 13th of July?

I really feel like applying for the 820 earlier as I can get stat decs and have one from each of us saying that we've been living together for more than 12 months for sure. Thing is, as I've mentioned in my first post in this thread, we didn't see the need for things like Joint accounts / having her name on the lease as I was paying for those things (she would transfer her share back to me) and we have access to each other's bank accounts, with supplementary credit cards as well.

What would you advise? 

Also 2 things; 
- If I cancel my student visa 573 and AFTER 28 days, apply for the 820, am I still subject to Schedule 3?
- If I cancel my student visa 573, LEAVE Australia, apply for an ETA, come back into Australia THEN apply for 820, would I still be subject to Schedule 3?


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

so it has come to my attention that tango doesnt save history on a server...
being that the case i have no proof of video calls from our big separation from 06/06/13 to 01/12/14 i do have quite a lot of chat logs from kakaotalk
( 1 file missing in between though)
it looks like this
http://tinypic.com/r/2z50iua/9
with a lot of korean words
what should i do?
i can't afford to translate everything nor do i want them to read it..
how can i prove that we were in contact for the year and a half?
or does it not matter cause we were separated for too long

since -1/12/14 we've been together till now


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

Noone can help me with this one eh..
Alrighty thens haha


----------



## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

We used Skype, I copied all text to a Word Doc, reduced it to smallest size and included page numbers. WE had over 1,000 pages, I printed 50 equally spaced page numbers (but 2 or 3 consecutive).

I then cut the pages in vertical strips and glued 4 or 5 strips to a page. There was very little conversation visible - but it include her name my name and date and time - essentially a log.

I wrote a cover letter to explain what I had done and if there were any gays in date we were probably together and if they wanted more I would happily sent all 1,000+ pages in full.

I know letters can not be posted here but this is just a format used (if not Mods delete) and can only be used by a Aaron & Vika or a fool so should be ok for all to view.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0pffjprurwnn72u/Skype log S.pdf?dl=0


----------



## DJKOR (Nov 4, 2015)

ampk said:


> We used Skype, I copied all text to a Word Doc, reduced it to smallest size and included page numbers. WE had over 1,000 pages, I printed 50 equally spaced page numbers (but 2 or 3 consecutive).
> 
> I then cut the pages in vertical strips and glued 4 or 5 strips to a page. There was very little conversation visible - but it include her name my name and date and time - essentially a log.
> 
> ...


That actually looks like a pretty smart way to do it.

We had about 311 pages of Whatsapp chat on a rather small print but we just sent the entire thing in. Part of us didn't like the idea because it's private and all, but the other part just wanted to make sure there is nothing that would get in the way. We figured that they would need quite a bit of time if they wanted to really read through it in detail.


----------



## Jadvic (Dec 9, 2015)

Me and my same-sex partner have applied for her partner visa 3 years ago via a migration agent. At the time, he advised us to register our relationship, which we did at the very beginning of our application process. So far it had been going on quite smoothly, and in August she was granted visa subclass 820. Just when we thought everything was going to be just fine, she received a surprise call from her case officer. It turned out to be a phone interview. My partner was asked many questions such as where we live, details about our relationship, but the most troubling thing was, she asked her why we didn't have a joint-savings account. The fact that we already have a joint-account for our daily household expenses seemed not to have satisfied her. And on the phone, the officer said, "if it is a genuine relationship, how can you guys not have any joint savings together?" My partner's only reply was to say that because we simply do not feel the need to - we do not have mortgage or loans, and we do not plan to have kids. We just never thought to have a joint-savings account. Now I am very worried that her visa will be refused based on this alone!

But back to your case, I think it is essential that you have your relationship registered. I don't know how being a same sex couple would affect our application. But on the phone, the case officer also challenged her by asking how come she doesn't know about my parents' name. And that was only because my parents are in a different state and my partner was only introduced as my "good friend" because my parents are religious and homophobic. I never planned to come out to them. The officer seemed quite unfriendly too but I guess that's just because it's her job to sort out who is in a genuine relationship or who's not - by being VERY intimidating. Anyway, I don't know whether my post here could help anyone. I surely need some help from you guys too, as the thought of the impending refusal of her visa is making me very devastated.



kattym said:


> Bare with me as this will be a long post. I will give as much information about our case and my confusion towards the decision.
> 
> I'm the sponsor. my partner who is from Georgia, US and i applied for the parter visa 23 September 2014 and got response 2 days ago ( 13/11/2015 ) that it was refused.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jadvic (Dec 9, 2015)

I just joined this forum today because of my own issue with the 820 subclass visa. I think it is essential that you have both your names of the lease. That's the advice from our migration agent anyway. And register your relationship too. It would help the case.



kwonsiie said:


> yea, i think i should do that right away.
> 
> met in 2011 lived together in shared accommodation in 2012
> then lived at my parents for 2months due to injury and no $$$
> ...


----------



## kwonsiie (Nov 15, 2015)

So i just read somewhere that form 888 should be no longer than 6 weeks
Where does it say this on immi's site?


----------



## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

kwonsiie said:


> So i just read somewhere that form 888 should be no longer than 6 weeks Where does it say this on immi's site?


Only under certain circumstances. I have written several posts on this already.

Sent from my iPhone using Australia


----------

