# Lodging a 2nd partner visa onshore (309 , 100)



## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

Hi
Im an Irish citizen who came to live and work here for a year in March 2012 on a working holiday 417 visa. I came to Perth and it is where i met my Australian girlfriend. In March 2013 I had to return to Ireland as my visa expired but myself and my girlfriend decided we would go the partner visa route so we could be reunited and continue our future together. We contacted a lawyer and we lodged an application in October 2013. Ultimately we got refused , we have a joint bank account, we submitted every document they asked for but because we did not share a household , they refused. Our lawyer thinks their reasoning is flawed as one of their reasons was we did not talk about any marrage or future plans, but in my girlfriends signed statutory declaration, she says she hopes we can be married one day. 
In the meantime, i arrived to Australia 3 weeks ago on a tourist visa,which was always the plan, so we could be together while the partner visa was being processed. i booked flights and got my visa in November, before we got refused in January a few weeks ago. 
Sincwe we lodged the initial application offshore, if we appeal the decision to the MRT, i would have no working rights, as the appeal could take quite a long time.
our lawyer says we should lodge a 2nd application as we have now more evidence of our relationship (my gf came to Ireland in November, as wel as a trip in August , I am currently here now living with her, we have got our relatonship declared in W.A, we have a utility bill in joint name, i have been added to her car insurance)
My question is, if we lodge a 2nd application onshore, even though i am here on a tourist visa (600), would i therefore go on a bridging visa with work entitlements whilst the application is being processed?
Apologies for the long winded post but i am not too happy with my lawyer, he is slow getting back to me, he is giving me misinformation and correcting himself later and i have already paid him $4,000 for what was a failed application

Thanks
Niall


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

Yes, your lawyer seems pretty shady, IMO. Is he a registered migration agent, or just a lawyer? A registered migration agent is what you should always use. Anyway...

It does sound like you are in a much better spot to apply now, and yes if you applied onshore now you'd get a bridging visa with full work rights. (Of course, presuming your 600 doesn't have a "no further stay" condition on it, in which case you'd not be able to apply onshore). 

In order to qualify for a de facto visa, you have to prove you're living as husband and wife. For most people this means living together for a year (with evidence to prove it) or registering your relationship. Seems like you didn't meet either of those conditions last time. Since you've registered and you've now lived together for some time, you should be okay.


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

CollegeGirl said:


> Yes, your lawyer seems pretty shady, IMO. Is he a registered migration agent, or just a lawyer? A registered migration agent is what you should always use. Anyway...
> 
> It does sound like you are in a much better spot to apply now, and yes if you applied onshore now you'd get a bridging visa with full work rights. (Of course, presuming your 600 doesn't have a "no further stay" condition on it, in which case you'd not be able to apply onshore).
> 
> In order to qualify for a de facto visa, you have to prove you're living as husband and wife. For most people this means living together for a year (with evidence to prove it) or registering your relationship. Seems like you didn't meet either of those conditions last time. Since you've registered and you've now lived together for some time, you should be okay.


Hi CollegeGirl, 
Yes he's a registered migration lawyer, i had a call with him today and feel much more confident. we are looking to lodge a 2nd application within 2 weeks
He says as i am on a 600 tourist visa with no working rights, when we apply onshore, i will not be allowed to work as he says a bridging visa will just be an extension of my current visa
are you saying , that i would have work rights?
he says that he can apply for work rights based on financial hardship if i show my limited income. of course for a fee on his behalf for processing it


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

Once again, your lawyer is giving you incorrect and outdated advice. It USED to be the case that work rights on bridging visas followed the original visa - but for partner visa applicants the law changed over a year ago (maybe even two years now). You will absolutely have full working rights. If this guy is a MARA-registered migration agent, I'd be reporting him. He's giving you quite a bit of wrong advice!


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

Just looked it up - this change was made by Immigration on 24 November 2012. Here's just one of a bunch of websites that talks about it. Any of the registered migration agents on this forum will tell you the same thing I just did, by the way.

Full Work Rights for On-Shore Partner applicants on bridging visas | Visa Australia


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

CollegeGirl said:


> Once again, your lawyer is giving you incorrect and outdated advice. It USED to be the case that work rights on bridging visas followed the original visa - but for partner visa applicants the law changed over a year ago (maybe even two years now). You will absolutely have full working rights. If this guy is a MARA-registered migration agent, I'd be reporting him. He's giving you quite a bit of wrong advice!


thanks for this info collegegirl
do you have any links that would support this, i am currently on hold to the DIBP as i want to clarify this. if i have links i could confront my agent

edit : just saw your next post. much appreciated


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

Oh, and don't let your lawyer try to tell you you have to apply for it specially, either. The BVA for partner visa applicants automatically comes with full work rights. No application necessary. You get it automatically when you apply for the partner visa.


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

CollegeGirl said:


> Oh, and don't let your lawyer try to tell you you have to apply for it specially, either. The BVA for partner visa applicants automatically comes with full work rights. No application necessary. You get it automatically when you apply for the partner visa.


i cant believe that ive been fed so uch misinformation. he is mara registered and everything. my friend used him and recommended him.

on that link you posted it states:
''The work rights will only come into effect when the BVA activates, after the expiry of the last visa held.''

i am on a 6 month tourist subclass 600 visa, activated on 15th January 2014. Does this mean i have to wait until 15th June before i can work?


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

my lawyer has just replied to my email where i posted that link 
they state :

''This information is correct, however for as long as your Tourist visa is valid then the ‘No Work’ condition will still apply – unless you decide to then cancel your Tourist visa and go on the associated Bridging Visa A that has work rights.''



am i to take it, that cancelling my tourist visa is relatively simple and that i can go on a bridging visa with full work rights
im fuming here


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

No, he's correct that he can't work as long as your tourist visa is active and that the BVA won't activate until your current stay on your tourist visa ends. You were asking about work rights on the Bridging Visa, so that's what I was addressing. What are the conditions on your 600, i.e., what is the maximum stay? If the maximum stay on your tourist visa is three months the BVA would kick in at the end of that three months. But if it's six months, then yes, you'll have to wait six months to work. 

Your application is likely to take 13-18 months, though (current processing times) so you will have working rights for the remainder of your processing time.


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

CollegeGirl said:


> No, he's correct that he can't work as long as your tourist visa is active and that the BVA won't activate until your current stay on your tourist visa ends. You were asking about work rights on the Bridging Visa, so that's what I was addressing. What are the conditions on your 600, i.e., what is the maximum stay? If the maximum stay on your tourist visa is three months the BVA would kick in at the end of that three months. But if it's six months, then yes, you'll have to wait six months to work.
> 
> Your application is likely to take 13-18 months, though (current processing times) so you will have working rights for the remainder of your processing time.


Thanks for the clarification
my visa states that i can stay for a year, i can leave and enter australia but i can only stay for a max of 6 months, and then upon re-entry i can stay for another 6 months
can i cancel my tourist visa when i lodge the partner visa application,which would mean the BVA would take precedence and i could work as my tourist visa would no longer be valid?


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## Valentine1981 (Sep 13, 2012)

If you allow your current valid visa to expire then you go direct to BVA...if you cancel your tourist visa I believe you will be unlawful and will be on BVE with no work rights...many people have had this issue who are students...have applied for defacto and then cancelled the student visa and ended up in a bit of a pickle. I am not 100% sure though so I would check with Mark Northman or one of the other agents on this forum. Quite honestly I wouldn't trust anything your current agent is telling you!!


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## Valentine1981 (Sep 13, 2012)

Oh and if it's a 6 month visa then your BVA will kick in July 15th if you arrived in Aus Jan 2014. I'm seriously appalled by the advice you are being given by this "agent" and agree with CG that you should lodge a complaint


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

If my clients were checking up on my advice on a public forum, I would be most disturbed. If you are paying someone for professional advice, then you should be able to rely on that advice.


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

thanks all. 
i have limited savings and am currently living with my gf at her rented house. i dont think my savings could stretch until july 15th. i reckon april or may at the most
are there any other options available to me that would entitle me to work. my lawyer says he can get me work entitlements through financal hardship but then his associate thinks we can cancel the tourist visa

i dont know what to believe anymore


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

I am honestly not sure if you can cancel a tourist visa. That's not a question I've seen here before as most people only get three-month stays so it's generally not as much of an issue. It IS definitely possible to apply for work rights via financial hardship when you're on a bridging visa that doesn't allow work... but I'm not sure about a tourist visa. This is a complicated question, even for this forum, unfortunately. Maybe post on the "Ask Mark" thread at the top of the forum and see what he has to say? Make sure you note you have a six month tourist visa and are asking specifically if it's possible to cancel a tourist visa or to apply so you can work on your tourist visa because you can't go six months without working...


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

Done 


our offshore application was sent decision ready and we got a decision in 3 months . hopefully we get a same turnaround for the onshore


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## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

NiallC33 said:


> I am currently here now living with her, we have got our relatonship declared in W.A, we have a utility bill in joint name, i have been added to her car insurance)


Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you can register your relationship in WA for DIBP purposes.


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

Good job picking that up, Maggie. Niall, only the city of Vincent allows relationship registration in WA and that is unfortunately not legal for DIBP purposes.


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

hey guys
yes i knew that but our lawyer said it could do our chances no harm. so we registered with the city of vincent and am currently awaiting a date to receive the cert. we do know it is not a legal binding document but it will be more supporting documentation of our genuine and committed relationship


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## ccpro (Feb 2, 2012)

I hope NiallC33 is not going to apply the visa based on that relationship registration, otherwise it may not be successful again if they haven't lived together for a year. His 'MARA agent' should be telling him all these. this agent doesn't seem too reliable.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

I think you should go and get yourself some solid professional advice somewhere. Finding answers to these complex questions on public forums is not the way to go.

If you have to second-guess a professional adviser on a public forum, you obviously don't have much confidence in him. 

I would not advice you on your particular issues without doing a comprehensive assessment of your whole situation, but in general terms :

Cancellation of visas can cause all sort of complications. 

Be careful with claiming financial hardship, as it may affect your partner visa application later on.


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

NiallC33 said:


> hey guys
> yes i knew that but our lawyer said it could do our chances no harm. so we registered with the city of vincent and am currently awaiting a date to receive the cert. we do know it is not a legal binding document but it will be more supporting documentation of our genuine and committed relationship





ccpro said:


> I hope NiallC33 is not going to apply the visa based on that relationship registration, otherwise it may not be successful again if they haven't lived together for a year. His 'MARA agent' should be telling him all these. this agent doesn't seem too reliable.


no of course not, we just feel it is an extra supporting document rather than using it to circumvent regulation
its hard to go into on here but the DIBP's refusal reasons were very weak. one of their reasons was that we did not talk of our future or marriage but in my gf's statutory declaration, in black and white, she talked about marriage
we were going to go the MRT appeal route but my lawyer said i could not get working rights whilst it is being reviewed


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## ccpro (Feb 2, 2012)

It takes a VERY long time for your case to be reviewed by the MRT. I think you can appeal and at the same time apply another partner visa. I bet the odd is you will be granted the partner visa this time before you hear from the MRT.


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

yes, our agent did advise us on this, so thats why we will lodge a second application. but this time we have a lot more supporting docs and hopefully a more lenient case officer who does not refuse on the basis of certain points, even though we have addressed those points in our application


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

I still would honestly be pretty concerned without a relationship registration that DIBP recognizes as being valid for waiving the 12-month defacto criteria. 

Do you at least have evidence showing you've financially supported each other during the last 12 months? It's very difficult for couples who haven't lived together *at all* to claim they are de facto. I'm afraid DIBP would see all your visits to each other as dating, and only now count you as de facto since you're living together now. And as you know you'd need to be de facto for a year to apply.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

You applied in October 2013 and got a refusal in January 2014 ? That was very fast. Did you get the opportunity to provide additional documentation or did they just refuse it ?

College Girls is right. You either should have a relationship registration that is recognised by DIBP or you have to make sure that you meet the 12 month de-facto requirements with solid, indisputable evidence.In view of the previous refusal, you should take no chances.

You could always get married of course, if you're really serious about this…


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

CollegeGirl said:


> I still would honestly be pretty concerned without a relationship registration that DIBP recognizes as being valid for waiving the 12-month defacto criteria.
> 
> Do you at least have evidence showing you've financially supported each other during the last 12 months? It's very difficult for couples who haven't lived together *at all* to claim they are de facto. I'm afraid DIBP would see all your visits to each other as dating, and only now count you as de facto since you're living together now. And as you know you'd need to be de facto for a year to apply.


we have held a joint bank account for the past year yes, with savings in it of approx $8,000 dollars.
when they refused us, they did not mention we did not live together for 12 months, but instead refused us because we did not speak of future plans like marriage. which we did in our stat decs

yes, 3 months was the turnaround and yes they did ask us for extra information which we supplied

also , marriage is of course on the cards but after my gf finishes her evening business degree course. i have heard you can get a form that is an intent to marry which the DIBP recognizes?


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## Valentine1981 (Sep 13, 2012)

Niall can I ask how long you and your girlfriend have actually lived together in the same house. You are saying that they refused based on absence of future plans..however in your original post you say that they refused you based on the fact that you don't share a household....DIPB are pretty strict on the 1 year living together thing. I believe others on this forum have seen visa rejections for people who had 11/11.5 months living together and did not have the registration waiver to get around that issue. Based on the fact that DIPB refused an application from last October and you arrived in Aus about 3 weeks ago...I really don't think that you will be ready to lodge an application in the next few weeks....based on the information you have provided they will reject you for the exact same reason they did first time.

If you are going to wait out the 6 months then I would suggest lodging in July a few weeks before your current visa expires when you will have proof of at least another 6 months living together....

I also know too well the financial teeth kick that is lodging a partner visa and with the onshore cost currently standing at close to $4600 I would hate for you to lose that money as well....

the NOIM (notice of intent to marry) is I believe the document you are talking about...and if marriage to your partner is seriously something you are considering...it may be worthwhile.lodging an offshore PMV (prospective marriage visa) and coming back to Australia on a tourist visa while you await processing. You clearly are in a genuine relationship with your partner and have met in person....and therefore the PMV grant has a much higher chance of being granted than the 820 (purely based on my onshore experience applying for the damn thing)


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## Star Hunter (Jun 29, 2012)

EEP! I am actually disgusted at your migration agent for taking your hard earned money and giving you outright shitty advice! He is holding your future in his hands and he's not doing a very good job of ensuring that future! Ugh! 

DIBP are incredibly strict on what they define as a "de facto" relationship and that is either 12 months of living together (with some allowance for separation that is limited and for very good reasons) or relationship registration that is valid - and WA does not provide such a document. 
There have been stories on here of defacto applications that have been refused because the applicant could only prove 11 months of cohabitation, and sometimes they have bucket loads of other evidence of genuine relationship. How long have you actually lived with your partner? 

Having a joint bank account and a joint utility bill is not going to be enough to satisfy that cohabitation requirement and you will need hard evidence of actually living together - letters sent to same address, utility bills spanning at 12 months etc etc - for 12 months. 

I really think you need to rethink applying in the near future and definitely fire that migration agent because he seriously is not being a very good steward of your future (or your money that you're wasting on futile applications). 

Have you considered the PMV? It seems a much better fit for your circumstances, provided that you do intend to get married in the future of course. 

Please, please do some more research before throwing good money after bad! 

Best wishes!


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

Just note that for the PMV you are REQUIRED to marry within nine months of your application being approved or your visa is cancelled.


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

CollegeGirl

Can you give me more info on the PMV thanks
I'm pretty sure we would tick all the boxes on this one

Thanks
Niall


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## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

This thread gives a good summary of the PMV as well as the partner visas....

http://www.australiaforum.com/visas-immigration/20733-partner-visa-should-i-apply.html


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

if i lodge a 2nd application and ultimately we fail due to not living together 12 months, bearing in mind that by that time, we will have lived together for at least 10-11 months (keeping in line with processing times) , if we appealed to MRT, would i still be able to work and live here as part of my bridging visa, until it is all resolved
i am prepared to hit some hurdles and take some more falls along the way, we already have, but this is the girl who means the world to me and i want to spend the rest of my life with. but if it means i get to stay whilst we surmount these obstacles, then so be it.


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## Star Hunter (Jun 29, 2012)

NiallC33 said:


> if i lodge a 2nd application and ultimately we fail due to not living together 12 months, bearing in mind that by that time, we will have lived together for at least 10-11 months (keeping in line with processing times) , if we appealed to MRT, would i still be able to work and live here as part of my bridging visa, until it is all resolved
> i am prepared to hit some hurdles and take some more falls along the way, we already have, but this is the girl who means the world to me and i want to spend the rest of my life with. but if it means i get to stay whilst we surmount these obstacles, then so be it.


The problem with this is that the defacto requirements are "time of lodgement" requirements, which mean that MRT will only assess your application based on whether you fulfilled that requirement at the time of lodgement. You can submit more evidence to MRT to support your application, but that evidence would still need to be proof that you satisfied the criteria at time of lodgement. Living together 12 months AFTER you applied will not matter to the MRT because they will still assess your application as being invalid at time of lodgement.

You will waste money on a second application and then waste money on MRT and I just don't see you having a successful outcome on your defacto application of you apply in the coming weeks.

I'm not a migration agent and I am far from being an expert (and I welcome any confirmation or correction on what I'm saying) but I have spent many, many hours browsing this forum and it's very clear that DIBP very, very rarely bend on their defacto rules.

At least look into the PMV because I really think it's your best option unless you can find a way to stay in Australia in order to reach 12 months cohabitation and then apply for defacto. The other alternative is to actually get married of course - it's the path my husband and I eventually chose.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

What you really need to do is sit down with your agent and get him to explain all the different pathways to you properly. Then have a look at your circumstances and your evidence. That way you can make an informed decision on the best way forward. You'll only end up completely confusing yourself by speculating about all these different hypothetical situations.


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## Star Hunter (Jun 29, 2012)

Maybe find a different agent as well! You don't sound at all confident with your current one and it's your right to receive advice that you trust! 

Please keep us updated on your situation and which pathway you eventually choose! 

Most of all...good luck to you during this painful and frustrating time!


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

cheers all, its a very emotional and financially draining time for both me and my partner. i think we may have to look into moving back to ireland for a year and living together, that way we fulfil their cohabitation rule. my gf would get an irish visa easy enough


an excerpt from the refusal decision :

''I have taken into consideration the following:

-	The fact that you have not at any time created a joint household;


..............
While I am satisfied that you are in a relationship with your sponsor, I am not satisfied that that relationship has developed beyond a boyfriend/ girlfriend relationship into a “de facto” relationship as required by the Regulations.

Subsequently I am not satisfied that you meet the nature of the commitment requirement.
''



at no time does she say its a strict 12 month rule, its just that we didnt provide any documents other than a joint bank account. but i was unable to provide documents as i had to leave the country due to my visa expiring , so of course we were seperated and we couldnt set up a household.. we provided a multitude of documents ranging from skype and facebook records , along with emails, birthday cards etc to showed we were in constant touch whilst separated due to visa issues


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

The CO did not accept that you lived in a de-facto relationship at all, let alone for 12 months. 

In my view ( based on the limited information provided in your posts), this application should never have been lodged in the first place, as it was doomed to fail.


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

CCMS said:


> The CO did not accept that you lived in a de-facto relationship at all, let alone for 12 months.
> 
> In my view ( based on the limited information provided in your posts), this application should never have been lodged in the first place, as it was doomed to fail.


but there was mitigating circumstances for our seperation. backed up by documents showing this as well as signed stat decs from both partners and family members


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## Star Hunter (Jun 29, 2012)

NiallC33 said:


> cheers all, its a very emotional and financially draining time for both me and my partner. i think we may have to look into moving back to ireland for a year and living together, that way we fulfil their cohabitation rule. my gf would get an irish visa easy enough
> 
> an excerpt from the refusal decision :
> 
> ...


"As required by the regulations" is probably definitely a reference to the living together for 12 months rule.

The fact that you couldn't set up a household due to your visa conditions does not come under "compelling reasons for separation". Everyone living in different countries face the same issue and DIBP will just want to know why you did not seek a PMV or another visa in order to satisfy their criteria.

You have to understand that the criteria is there for a good reason. They need to be satisfied that the relationship is genuine and continuing (and likely to continue). They aren't issuing partner visas to people who are dating and would like to see of their relationship works out, but who have already established a relationship. The PMV is a time limited visa (9 months) for that very reason.

I know it's not what you wanted to hear, but you really are lucky to have found this out now instead of after you paid for a second visa application. It's not the end, it just means you need to look at things from a different angle.

You can do this, you just need to figure out the best course of action for you xxxxx


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

That doesn't matter. It would have mattered if, say, you lived together for six months, then a family emergency happened and one of you had to go home for a month, and then you lived together another five months. That kind of thing would have been okay - you would have showed you still stayed in contact, that you continued to financially support each other, etc. These kinds of situations are the only "bend" there is to the 12-month rule - short separations apart. But you never lived together for any significant period of time. You never had a chance at getting approved for a de facto visa.


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## Star Hunter (Jun 29, 2012)

Niall - I know it's emotional and financially draining and the regulations can be frustrating. You really are not the only one to feel like it's a no win situation - how can we get a defacto visa if the government won't give me a visa that facilitates that etc. I get it. My husband was too old for a working holiday visa and he didn't have any skills on the skills list and essentially no hope of getting any visa that allowed us 12 months of unbroken cohabitation. He is from America and thankfully had access to the ETA and used that to enter Australia on 3 separate occasions. We built up 9 months of cohabitation broken by him having to fulfil his ETA conditions and we knew that a defacto visa would not ever be on the cards for us (I can't immigrate to the US because I have children of my previous marriage and custody orders prevent me from taking them out of the country). We considered the PMV but didn't want to be apart while it was processing, so we made the decision to get married in Australia while he was here for the 2nd time.

I don't regret it. I knew I was planning to spend my life with this man. I am not pushing marriage onto you, but if you're considering it anyway....it is a different way to to about things and you don't need 12 months living together to apply for the spouse visa - and you can apply for it onshore provided your current visa doesn't have a no further stay condition attached. 

This forum really is filled with people who truly understand your predicament and who can honestly empathise with the pain of needing to be with someone and hitting brick walls each time you turn. Some days I need to take a break from this board because the anguish sometimes gets to me. You are truly among friends here who understand like nobody else can. Please take strength from these people and do what you have to in order to push on.


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

CCMS said:


> The CO did not accept that you lived in a de-facto relationship at all, let alone for 12 months.
> 
> In my view ( based on the limited information provided in your posts), this application should never have been lodged in the first place, as it was doomed to fail.


so what options do we have
a pmv means i have to go offshore and wait months and months

or do we take a chance with a second application

or do we go to ireland, live together for 12 months and reapply

using forums like this ,whilst helpful, are like self diagnosing on google. what starts as a tickly cough is suddenly throat cancer when you google it
nothing is black and white in this world, users of forums more often than not have hard luck stories but what about the people who were in similar situations like myself who have got defacto visas but dont share their story as theres no need cos theyve been succesful


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## Star Hunter (Jun 29, 2012)

NiallC33 said:


> so what options do we have
> a pmv means i have to go offshore and wait months and months
> 
> or do we take a chance with a second application
> ...


They don't post on this forum because they don't exist. I'm sorry to be harsh, but you don't seem to understand. If you submit a second defacto application in the next few weeks given what you have shared, you will get another rejection. We have lots of successful applicants who share on this site, it's not all people with complicated applications. We have people with applications approved literally in days.

It's your money and your future and ultimately it's up to you what you choose to do. I would seriously advise that you seek a second opinion through another migration agent and a third if necessary.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

NiallC33 said:


> so what options do we have
> 
> using forums like this ,whilst helpful, are like self diagnosing on google


Like I said before, stop guessing and speculating and get some good professional advice from someone you feel comfortable with and who has a good reputation.


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## kttykat (Oct 30, 2012)

NiallC33 said:


> so what options do we have
> a pmv means i have to go offshore and wait months and months Yes, it takes months, many on this site have endured years waiting to be with their partners!!
> 
> or do we take a chance with a second application I have to agree with the others, this sounds like a long shot to me, especially as you have already been refused and your evidence sounds sketchy at best
> ...


 We have seen plenty of people on this forum who have had difficulties with their applications. The 12 month living together rule is well spelled out by immigration as not negotiable and they mean to the day! 11 months and 29 days don't cut it if you are applying for de facto, it is up to you to prove your case. With many more applicants than they want to approve, you must convince them of the validity of your case, or expect a refusal. Your choice. At least with this forum you are talking to people who are going through similar situations or have been through it all before themselves. I would think you need to see a GOOD migration agent to check your case before throwing away more money.

Best of luck,
Kttykat


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## NeilAlexander (May 24, 2013)

As it has been stated several times in the replies you have received, applying for another de-facto visa will be a waste of time & money.

If you read the extract that you included in your earlier post again carefully, taking close attention to the wording they use, the CO is saying that whilst he/she is satisfied that you are boyfriend and girlfriend, you have not been in a de facto relationship (which by their definition is defined as living together exclusively for a period of 12 months) and therefore you are not eligible at this moment in time for a de facto visa.

In my opinion (and I'm not a migration agent so it's just an opinion)

1) Don't re-apply for the same visa. If you have been rejected once, due to you not meeting the requirements, you will be rejected again

2) You would be better applying either for a PMV, or, as you said, moving back to Ireland to live together with your girlfriend for a period of 12 months before applying again for a de facto visa. My Australian girlfriend & I had to do the same in order to meet the requirements, and if you're serious about the relationship, which I'm sure you are, it'll all be worth it in the end

3) Get some proper advice from a qualified agent - Mark's name has been mentioned several times - Northam & Associates, I would not listen to the agent you are currently using!

I hope you manage to get yourself sorted out!


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

myself and my partner were talking about it yesterday and it looks like we may head back to ireland in a couple of months. she can get a 1 year working holiday visa and we will rent an apartment for a year , thus satisfying the 12 month cohabitation rule

after the year is up, im assuming i would be able to come back to aus on a tourist visa, like i am now and apply onshore for the partner visa, but this time have a minimum length of stay condition, unlike my current 6 month one, so the BVA would kick in and i could work whilst we undergo the process again?


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## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

NiallC33 said:


> myself and my partner were talking about it yesterday and it looks like we may head back to ireland in a couple of months. she can get a 1 year working holiday visa and we will rent an apartment for a year , thus satisfying the 12 month cohabitation rule
> 
> after the year is up, im assuming i would be able to come back to aus on a tourist visa, like i am now and apply onshore for the partner visa, but this time have a minimum length of stay condition, unlike my current 6 month one, so the BVA would kick in and i could work whilst we undergo the process again?


It sounds like this is the wisest approach, and offers you the best chance of success which is ultimately your goal.

As far as returning on a tourist visa, by all means plan for that. However you should also prepare for the fact that the tourist visa may come with a No Further Stay condition, in which case you couldn't apply for an on-shore visa. You may be lucky and not get the NFS, but it's always good to have a contingency plan in case this is what happens. So another option (plan B) is to apply for the off-shore version of the visa before you leave Ireland, and then you simply need to keep DIBP updated of when you're in Australia so you can take a quick trip to Bali or NZ when they're ready to grant the visa.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

maggie-may24 said:


> It sounds like this is the wisest approach, and offers you the best chance of success which is ultimately your goal.
> 
> As far as returning on a tourist visa, by all means plan for that. However you should also prepare for the fact that the tourist visa may come with a No Further Stay condition, in which case you couldn't apply for an on-shore visa. .


After a previous partner visa refusal, it could be tricky to get a new tourist visa, unless you lodge a new partner visa application first.

If you did get one , it could come with a no further stay. You just can't be sure, so make contingency plans.

I had a similar scenario a while ago. Applicant applied onshore and was refused, because of not meeting de-facto requirements ( just a week short !). She went back to Europe and unsuccessfully applied for 3 tourist visas to come back to Australia.They then contacted me. We applied for a PMV, then a tourist visa, which was granted without no further stay condition. She had to travel to NZ for the grant of her PMV, then applied for the 820/8011. She now has PR, but the cost ,including all the application fees and plane fares for her partner and herself, was quite substantial. All this cost and drama could have been avoided if they had sought some professional advice first.

Best of luck! Love conquers all !


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

another question guys
my partners family are all from victoria,all live there
if my missus updated her details to victoria (she is certain she has some mail in her parents house addressed to her in Vic) , could we get the relatiosnhip declared in Vic, therefore circumventing the cohab requirement ?


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Have you looked up the requirements for registering a relationship in Victoria. ? You do actually have to live there. ..


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## Valentine1981 (Sep 13, 2012)

NiallC33 said:


> could we get the relatiosnhip declared in Vic, therefore circumventing the cohab requirement ?


I believe both of you have to prove that you live in Victoria full time in order to register the relationship...also you cannot register if you have gone through the process elsewhere..and while not recognised by DIBP for immigration purposes...you have already done this in WA


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

from the vic.gov website

Do both partners need to reside in Victoria?
No, so long as one partner has a permanent Victorian residential address which is also the preferred postal address.


my missus does have a postal address there


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## Valentine1981 (Sep 13, 2012)

don't you just love government's ability to convey the right info (detect sarcasm)

from Register a relationship - Births, Deaths & Marriages Victoria

Who can register a domestic relationship?
You and your partner can register a domestic relationship if:

you are both 18 years of age or older and are in a registrable relationship
*you can both prove that you are ordinarily resident in Victoria,* and
neither of you is:
married; or
in a relationship that is already registered; or
in another relationship that could be registered in Victoria.
- See more at: Register a relationship - Births, Deaths & Marriages Victoria


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

NiallC33 said:


> from the vic.gov website
> 
> Do both partners need to reside in Victoria?
> No, so long as one partner has a permanent Victorian residential address which is also the preferred postal address.
> ...


Mate , no disrespect , but maybe you should stop looking for non-existing loopholes ? I think you have been given plenty of useful suggestions on the best way forward...


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

of course i will look for loopholes. only a fool wouldnt
my only alternative is packing up , uprooting my gf from her life here and heading back to a country thats currently flooded and has 14% unemployment ,all because some pen pusher can somehow say we're not defacto


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Please yourself.


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

im just being facetious. its just frustrating as fcuk. i had a call with my lawyer today, not the guy who feeds me bullsh*t but his associate who does seem to know her stuff. she said she has got plenty of clients partner visas who did not meet the cohabitation rule. she argued using legal precedents of cases. one in particular where a judge ruled that even though a couple never legally lived together, they spent almost every night together and in that instance they were defacto. i asked her for her professional opinion, take her loyalties away and answer me if we have a chance of a second application and she said she is very confident. even saying she would do it on a no win no fee


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## Valentine1981 (Sep 13, 2012)

NiallC33 said:


> some pen pusher can somehow say we're not defacto


Unfortunately by the definition under Australian law (and based on the limited information you have supplied on this thread) it's not a question of some jobs worth saying you aren't...you genuinely don't qualify...unfortunately Australia is a very attractive country to migrate to and as such they have to be (often infuriatingly) strict when it comes to the criteria of this visa as it's the easiest way to PR if you don't have any skills that Australia requires. I know it sucks...many people on this forum have had to jump through various hoops and endure long separations (up to 1-2 years) from their loved ones because so many people are lodging applications. I know you desperately want to find that golden ticket loophole but I think at this point you are chasing a pipe dream. It's not going to happen. 
Another option available to you..and one that I used...may be student visa as at least you get to work 20 hours a week so not totally reliant on savings


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## NeilAlexander (May 24, 2013)

"all because some pen pusher can somehow say we're not defacto"

But you're not defacto? It's not some pen pusher making up the rules, they're not making it up as they go along, they're concrete rules that have been set for a long period of time.

Yes, it's unfortunate that your girlfriend is going to have to uproot her life in order to be in a relationship with you, but unfortunately they put these rules in place so that people can't find these loopholes in order to cheat the system.

Have you considered moving to NZ on a working holiday visa and applying from there?


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## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

I believe Victoria is also very strict that you must have lived together for 12 months before you can register your relationship, and not a day before.


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

*pulls last strand of hair from head*


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## Star Hunter (Jun 29, 2012)

NiallC33 said:


> another question guys
> my partners family are all from victoria,all live there
> if my missus updated her details to victoria (she is certain she has some mail in her parents house addressed to her in Vic) , could we get the relatiosnhip declared in Vic, therefore circumventing the cohab requirement ?


You can't just have a mailing address there, but you have to reside there - ie live, work and participate in the community there.

I know that we are raining on your parade, but there are simply no shortcuts with immigration. We've all been there and as much as your situation is real and stressful to you, you're not unique.

We are all doing the hard yards here! Everyone on the partner visa treadmill has had to make sacrifices - applicants and sponsors. The vast majority of us has spent months and sometimes years separated from our loved ones. When people attempt to manipulate the system, immigration fights back by creating policies that can make it even harder for migrant hopefuls to get a visa.

Have you researched the PMV? You can come back to Australia on a tourist visa once it's lodged or your partner can visit you in Ireland. It's a much easier visa to get compared to the de facto visa and while it does required that you get married within 9 months of visa approval, it sounds like you are planning to get married anyway and marriage isn't much different compared to a de facto relationship in Australia (as far as rights and obligations go between each person in the relationship). You can always just go to a registry office and then plan a huge ceremony with family and friends at a later date.


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

think we;ll just head back to rainy ireland and live there for a year. once we do this , there is no way they can refuse us. it was the only issue that screwed us on the last app, they agreed we were a couple, they agreed with the social aspect of the relationship. they agreed we had a joint financial committment with one another. at least if we live together for 12 months in ireland (it will be 14 months altogether taking into consideration my 2 months here in perth with her) , we should be a shoe in for the visa


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

Or just get married now and apply onshore ? A civil wedding is not that different from registering the relationship. Lawyers wanting to go to court on legal precedents ? Are you sure you want to go there ?


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## NeilAlexander (May 24, 2013)

Yes it's annoying as Hell...trust me I know how you're feeling. My girlfriend and I have been away from Australia for three years today exactly (simply because we planned to move to Canada for 12 months but had to move to NZ for 6 months while our Canadian visas were approved and we couldn't afford to apply for the visa until we got to the UK).

If you're both serious about this relationship then you just have to suck it up. My missus gave up her job, had to re-home her two cats, sell her car etc etc. It's an awful process to have to go through so I know how frustrated you're feeling!


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## Star Hunter (Jun 29, 2012)

NiallC33 said:


> im just being facetious. its just frustrating as fcuk. i had a call with my lawyer today, not the guy who feeds me bullsh*t but his associate who does seem to know her stuff. she said she has got plenty of clients partner visas who did not meet the cohabitation rule. she argued using legal precedents of cases. one in particular where a judge ruled that even though a couple never legally lived together, they spent almost every night together and in that instance they were defacto. i asked her for her professional opinion, take her loyalties away and answer me if we have a chance of a second application and she said she is very confident. even saying she would do it on a no win no fee


*sigh* we have very knowledgeable immigration agents who are legitimately registered who kindly offer their advice on this forum free of charge who have nothing to gain tell people time and time again that the cohabitation rule is not an optional extra.

You say that your lawyer discussed a couple who didn't live together but spent every night together - in my opinion that is called dating. Before I moved in with my ex husband we spent a year going backwards and forwards sleeping at each other's houses yes I never considered him my de facto until the day we moved in together. I didn't claim him on my taxes or anything until we fully and completely combined our households.

Immigration are not going to be convinced of the validity of a relationship that hasn't shown any evidence of true commitment. To be honest, how do you even know that your girlfriend and yourself won't drive each other crazy once you "set up house"? What's to stop either one of you just dusting your hands off and walking away the moment you get your PR? You may believe or even know that to be impossible, but immigration don't know you from a bar of soap and unfortunately those scenarios have happened in the past and that has been what has shaped the current legislation.

You are lucky that Australia even has a de facto visa at all and doesn't insist on marriage. They are taking a gamble on you and your relationship and they have every right to expect that you have demonstrated a minimum level of commitment.

I do think you're feeling unduly sorry for yourself or like you have been singled out and victimised but these rules apply to all of us - none of us are exempt from them.


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

I do refer to her as my partner all along in this thread
she is my girlfriend, she is not my wife. its just a term, dont get hung up on semantics please


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## Star Hunter (Jun 29, 2012)

NiallC33 said:


> I do refer to her as my partner all along in this thread
> she is my girlfriend, she is not my wife. its just a term, dont get hung up on semantics please


I deleted that part because I didn't want to sound bitchy, however, be aware that while you may just consider it semantics, immigration have been known to take the language used within an application very seriously.

You refer to her mostly as girlfriend and immigration are very specific that boyfriend/girlfriend type relationships don't qualify for a partner visa. You need to demonstrate that you see each other as life partners, and honestly I don't necessarily get that vibe from you. If I get that impression, then it's not outside the realms of possibility that your CO will also get that impression. When all we have to convince our CO that we are genuinely committed is our written application, words matter more than you probably appreciate 

ETA: it has been advised on this board on a few occasions to not use the words "boyfriend" or " girlfriend" in an application, relationship statement etc and certainly ask you witnesses to not use those words to describe your relationship. Will it make a difference? Who the hell knows, but it's a simple thing to do so why not just get out of the habit now to be safe


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

Star Hunter said:


> I deleted that part because I didn't want to sound bitchy, however, be aware that while you may just consider it semantics, immigration have been known to take the language used within an application very seriously.
> 
> You refer to her mostly as girlfriend and immigration are very specific that boyfriend/girlfriend type relationships don't qualify for a partner visa. You need to demonstrate that you see each other as life partners, and honestly I don't necessarily get that vibe from you. If I get that impression, then it's not outside the realms of possibility that your CO will also get that impression. When all we have to convince our CO that we are genuinely committed is out written application, words matter more than you probably appreciate


yeah you're right. you know me from 25 posts and obviously know how i view my partner/girlfriend of the past 20 months. i bow to your superiority


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## NeilAlexander (May 24, 2013)

Niall, don't be a dick. She (along with everyone else) is only trying to help you.


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## Star Hunter (Jun 29, 2012)

NiallC33 said:


> yeah you're right. you know me from 25 posts and obviously know how i view my partner/girlfriend of the past 20 months. i bow to your superiority


Now you're just being obnoxious! I was trying to offer advice based on my experience on this board and through my own journey. I didn't say that I knew how you view your partner, but I was explaining that words are important and you get one chance to make an impression of your feelings with a written statement.

Go and do what you wish, ignore all the advice given in this thread and give your lawyer thousands of dollars to argue legal precedents in court against immigration policy that is well established.

When you end up back here in a year crying because your second application is rejected we will still welcome you with open arms and offer our condolences because believe it or not but we share your pain.

You're not some victim of immigration! You really have no right to attempt to cut me down with your nasty words when all I have done is share my valuable time to help you not make a decision that has very real repercussions for the short and long term. None of us here gets paid to offer our advice or our sympathy or our shoulders and you have really been quite abrasive in your responses.


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## NiallC33 (Feb 3, 2014)

im the bad guy because someone says i dont see my partner/gf of 20 months as a life partner based on 25 posts???
yeah, figures
i havent judged any one of you, so why do it to me


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## Star Hunter (Jun 29, 2012)

NiallC33 said:


> im the bad guy because someone says i dont see my partner/gf of 20 months as a life partner based on 25 posts???
> yeah, figures
> i havent judged any one of you, so why do it to me


*sigh* I didn't say that at all. I have no idea of the extent of your commitment to her. My point was that I have seen nothing that you have provided or done to DEMONSTRATE that commitment and if *I* have noticed that! them chances are that any CO you have may pick up on it as well. You seem against marriage, you refer to her almost constantly as your girlfriend, you haven't cohabitated for any length of time and you only have a utility bill and car insurance as proof of your commitment. I'm not saying that it means you're not committed, but it's not proof that you ARE and that, my friend, is what you need.

I am truly trying to help you and sometimes in order to help we need to tell things as they are. Right now, any application you submit now is going to fail, regardless of what you personally believe. I don't want to see you waste that money, I don't want to see you experience the devastation of another rejection! I truly care about helping you have the very best chance of being able to migrate to my country...I will be the very first to congratulate you when you post the news of your visa grant!

You can insist on being offended if you wish, but it doesn't change he reality of your situation and what you need to do to bring your dream to fruition. No one wants to see you fail, believe me!


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## abby603 (Nov 9, 2012)

Now you're just taking your frustrations with Immigration out on everyone else. She specifically said it's your *wording* what might cause you trouble and come off as something else that might not be the reality, which is exactly what immigration might see as they don't *know* you, they only read what you wrote. It doesn't matter what reality is, if you word it the wrong way in a *written* application, it can only affect you negatively.

At the end of the day, no one here reviews/approves/denies your visa. You came for advice just to constantly argue about what is told to you. It is your money and your life, if you want to go and submit a second application (or whatever else you might decide to do) then go ahead, you don't have to convince anyone here as it doesn't concern anyone else but you.

If you don't want to hear what people have to say, then don't ask for advice. Constantly arguing just to try to get the reply you want to hear (despite whatever the reality is), is useless and pointless and defeats asking for advice in the first place.

I truly wish you luck with your future plans, just please rest assured no one here has any interest in going up against you. Everybody who has been through the process knows how hard and excrutiating it might be, so don't just bash the people who are genuinely givinng you their time for free to help you.


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## CCMS (Oct 10, 2013)

abby603 said:


> If you don't want to hear what people have to say, then don't ask for advice. .


I do lose out on business occasionally, because I won't tell people what they want to hear. My strategy is to get all the facts together, look at the available evidence, check out all the relevant requirements and regulations and then work out the options. Not everyone is entitled to a visa. Being in a relationship with an Aussie doesn't entitle you to a visa either.That's just the way it is.


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

Sigh. Niall, the advice you've been given above is sound. No one here is judging you or trying to make your life harder. They're all trying to help, and they are giving you SOLID advice we have seen on this forum time and time again from MARA-registered migration agents who deal with these applications every day and know how Immigration handles them inside and out. Immigration DOES care about "semantics," as you so blithely call them - in fact, in certain situations they will reject Forms 888 when a witness' testimony simply says the couple are "in a relationship" rather than "in a defacto relationship." Is that ridiculous? Well, yeah! But it's the way they occasionally operate, and it's information that regulars on the forum have because we've seen it all before.

For example - did you know that Immi is not responsible for any incorrect advice they give? We've seen people on this forum take in their applications to a processing center, be told NOT to turn in their evidence, to just provide their forms and that the CO would ask for evidence later - only to have their application rejected a few days later for lack of evidence! And there was no recourse - none. They lost their application fee and had to reapply, because Immigration is not held responsible when their representatives give wrong advice. This process can be really tricky, and in your case it's going to be DOUBLY tricky because you already have one rejected visa. They've already decided you don't qualify for a visa - and like it or not, that means your case has to be that much stronger next time you apply because you've got to overcome that. 

Everyone here is simply trying to help you avoid the little (and the big) things we have seen trip up other applicants like you because we don't want to see you get rejected a second time. That's all.


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