# ACS Deeming Skilled date



## voodooravi (Aug 24, 2013)

To Mark Northam

Hi Mark

First of all I'd like to apologize if I'm starting a new thread on the "ACS Deeming skilled date" subject, while I could have joined an existing thread on the same. I tried searching for one but couldn't find. Again sorry for this. 

My case isn't so unique or different from others you may have already read and responded all this while: 
I did my Skill Assessment following the RPL process a while back, as I didn't do my Bachelors in Computer Science (I have done my Bachelors in Commerce), for ANZSCO code 261312 (Developer Programmer). In the ACS Skill Assessment result, out of my 13 years of relevant work experience, only 9 years of work experience was mentioned / considered.
Then we applied for the 189 EOI (through my agent), we considered 8 years of experience plus 7 of IELTS in each band, etc, total coming to 65. We got the invitation in the EOI process for 189. 
In our final review of documents, just before applying for the visa (to DIAC), we realized there was an additional mention of "After September 2009..." in the ACS letter, on top of the 9 years of work experience mentioned. Now this would change everything if we literally had to go by each word. My 9 years of work experience would simple come down to 4. There's no doubt that we faulted in not reading the ACS letter clearly before doing our EOI.
Anyways we contacted the ACS to ask for clarifications and if needed make an appeal (as my work experience for the past 10 years is strongly relevant). They responded that all questions related to "allocation of points" should go to DIAC and is at their discretion. We have written to the DIAC officers but haven't heard back yet.

Not that I'm expecting a very clear answer from DIAC, I have read about a few cases (similar to mine) where the DIAC officers have considered relevant years of experience over and above the deemed skilled date. In my case I have strong reference letters (on official company letter heads) clearly pointing my Developer / Programmer experience in the past 9 years.

Do you think, is there any way out? I don't think I can apply for State nominations (with 55 points) considering they have closed now for code 261312

Thanks a lot
Voodooravi


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Voodooravi -

Unless DIAC is ready to give you the points for the years that ACS didn't (unlikely, unfortunately), you'll have to withdraw your application and update your EOI accordingly. I would suggest putting up a STRONG fight with DIAC, politely of course, but stating that the evidence you've provided clearly states that those additional years beyond ACS' view show skilled employment. You need to make a detailed, complete submission and quote the relevant regulations and policy, but I think it's worth the fight. Plus, what is the alternative? They've halted state sponsorship of your occupation. That leaves a strong fight for the 189 and full credit for your work as your primary option.

Problem is, DIAC policy follows the skills assessor - here's the relevant text from the Procedures Advice Manual (PAM3) which is used by DIAC case officers:

*16.3 When is an applicant skilled
An applicant is considered skilled and therefore eligible for claiming employment points from the date the relevant assessing authority considers the person to be skilled in the nominated occupation:

• If a skills assessment provides a date at which the assessing authority is of the view that the applicant became 'skilled', case officers must ensure that any claimed employment experience under Schedule 6D took place from this date and not earlier.
• The date on which an applicant becomes 'skilled' may be different from the date that an assessing authority finds that the person meets their requirement for a suitable skills assessment. For example, an assessing authority may issue a suitable skills assessment on the basis of attainment of a tertiary qualification but may require a period of post qualification work experience before considering an applicant 'skilled' for the purpose of employment points.*

Frankly I have major problems with ACS' policy of "automatically" disallowing work experience as "skilled" even if it is post-qualification. It is heavy-handed, and assumes everyone has the same work experience characteristics after graduation. Plus, it seems to negate the validity of the very educational qualifications they are assessing! Has ACS the right to make a blanket condemnation of all colleges everywhere, essentially saying that they have not fully trained a person for a job, and that "x" years of experience are also required before the person becomes "skilled"? I think not. But until that policy is challenged legally or otherwise, or until DIAC decides that skills assessors cannot simply make up new rules without oversight, that's what we have to live with.

I wish you luck with your application - wish I had better news!

Best,

Mark Northam


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## voodooravi (Aug 24, 2013)

Thanks Mark!

I could not have expected a more clear response. So again thanks for responding.

I do see value in putting up a strong (polite) fight with DIAC. If one has to lose, losing without trying makes it a double loss (I guess)

Voodooravi


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## goin2oz (Aug 11, 2013)

Dear Mark,

I request your kind input in the following case. 

I have received positive skills assessment from ACS with following details:

ANZSCO Code - 261311 - Analyst Programmer
Engineering Electronics(2002-2009)
IT exp ( Oct 2006 to present, 6 yr 10 months)

India (Oct 2006 - May 2010)
Australia (Jun 2010 - present)

As per ACS, I am skilled after Oct 2010 (Graduate +4).

I am working in Australia on 457 visa approved for same occupation code (Application and Analyst Programmer).

Should I claim my Australian exp from Jun 2010 (Actual work exp on 457) or Nov 2010 (based on ACS) ?

If I don't claim experience from Jun 2010 to Sep 2010, would that signify violation of 8107 visa condition? As per this condition I am only allowed to work in approved occupation.

Thanks


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi GointoOz -

Not claiming the portion of work that ACS doesn't certify should not cause you any problems with your 457. If DIAC asks, you can provide ample evidence that you worked for your sponsoring employer during this period, so that would satisfy 8107. I can't give you any specific migration advice since I don't have access to your documents and detailed info, but you may want to consider claiming experience for skilled visa points only after October 2010, as any experience before that would be prior to your ACS deeming date and would likely be disqualified for points.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


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## goin2oz (Aug 11, 2013)

Hi Mark,

Thanks a lot for your reply.


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## Haiwind (Aug 24, 2013)

MarkNortham said:


> Hi Voodooravi -
> 
> *16.3 When is an applicant skilled
> 
> Mark Northam*


*

Hi Mark,
Has the PAM3 been updated recently? Cause i am only referring to 1-July-2011 version, and it mentioned as following:




22 Employment must be skilled
For employment to be considered 'skilled' it must meet two requirements:

1)that it was undertaken after the applicant met the entry level requirements for that occupation (that is, completed a sufficient level of study or amount of on-the-job training)

and

2)that it involved duties at the level of depth and complexity expected in Australia.

In assessing both factors, case officers should have regard to ANZSCO. For occupations for which ANZSCO does not provide adequate guidance, case officers should consider the requirements set by the relevant assessing authority.

22.1 When is an applicant skilled

Skilled on basis of educational qualifications
An applicant is taken to be capable of undertaking work at a skilled level only after they have met the entry level requirements for that occupation.If the entry level prescribed for the applicant's nominated occupation is a certain qualification only work undertaken after the applicant has completed that qualification will be counted as skilled employment.

For example to be a Systems Analyst, ANZSCO states that the entry level requirement is a bachelor's degree or a higher qualification or at least 5 years relevant experience. If an applicant had worked in a systems analyst role while completing their bachelor's degree, only the work undertaken after the academic requirements of the bachelor's degree had been met would count as skilled employment - see section 23 Working while studying.

22.2 Skilled after on the job training
The three main occupations for which on the job training can be used to obtain a suitable skills assessment are the trades, management positions and IT professionals.

As these applicants do not have an identifiable date of registration or completion of their formal studies, the assessing body will normally prescribe a date as of which the applicant is assessed as meeting the Australian standard for the occupation.

If this date has not been identified by the assessing authority, a case officer should have regard to ANZSCO in the first instance or where ANZSCO is silent, the guidelines used by the relevant assessing authority, to determine how long a person would need to work in that occupation before they would be considered to meet the Australian entry level requirement.

Importance of this date for visa purposes
The date an applicant met the Australian entry level requirement for their occupation, as prescribed by the assessing body or determined in accordance with the guidelines above, is the date from which an applicant can acquire skilled work experience in that occupation. Until that time, the applicant is in fact learning the job, albeit while on-the-job. They cannot therefore normally be assessed as performing the job at a skilled level.
For example, ANZSCO provides that in relation to Software and Applications Programmers, the entry level requirement is either a bachelor level qualification or 5 years work experience (or relevant vendor certification may substitute for the formal qualification). If an applicant applied for a GSM visa and nominated a suitable occupation from the Unit Group Software and Applications Programmers, but had no formal qualification, the case officer would, on the basis of ANZSCO, only consider work after the applicant had been working in that occupation for 5 years to be at a skilled level. This means only work undertaken after working in that occupation for 5 years would be considered towards meeting the requirements for the award of points for the Overseas employment, Australian employment, Occupation in demand or the Partner skills factors.

Click to expand...

Hope kindly share, thank you very much.
Best regards,
H*


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Haiwind -

I think you must have also emailed me for a copy. Yes, PAM3 from 2011 is way out of date. PAM3 changes as often, if not more often than migration regulations do, so it can be dangerous to rely on anything but the current regs/law/PAM3 policy unless you are referring to an older application and trying to pin down what the law/regs/policy was at the time that application was lodged.

Best,

Mark Northam


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## Harsingh (Sep 4, 2013)

*Confused for my ACS results*

Hi Mark,

I tried looking into the website to get answer for my below query but was unable to find.

I have recently got my ACS which was for Business Analyst. I have completed BCA as my graduation degree in 2003 and started working from Dec-04 till date 13. But ACS considered my Experience from Dec-08 till date and they left 4 years (12/04-12/08). When I checked with the ACS they told me that my graduation was not relevant to my job which is not correct.

To further strengthen my point I have a friend of mine who has done BCA from same University same City but in a different year ( 1 year after me, I completed in 03 & he did that in 04). He got his experience in his ACS results counted from day 1 and for me it was after 4 years.

I am not sure what should be my next step as they are considering same education qualification for the same field as relevant for my friend and irrelevant for me which does not make any sense. Please help me in understandhing what should be my next action. Thanks.


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Harsingh -

Sounds like you may need to request a review or appeal at ACS based on consistency. Here's a link that might be helpful:

http://www.acs.org.au/__data/assets...ew,-Appeal-or-Revalidation-1-July-2012-V1.pdf

Please advise if I can assist further - we recently prepared and lodged a successful review for a client whose 5-year Bachelor degree (w/honours) from overseas was initially assessed as only an Advanced Diploma by ACS and an an initial recheck by ACS produced the same result.

Best,

Mark Northam


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## inatoaus (Aug 16, 2013)

Hi Mark,

Firstly, I would like to extend my gratitude for your help you are giving in this forum to all of us immigrant wannabe.

I would like to ask you about the rumor out there that currently there is a 16th of August changes to the regulation states below:



> 16.2 When can employment be considered skilled
> For employment to be awarded points under Schedule 6D, it must meet three requirements:
> • it was undertaken after the applicant meets at least the entry level requirements as set by the relevant
> assessing authority for that occupation (that is, completed a sufficient level of study and or amount of
> ...


I am asking this because somebody claims that his visa got rejected because his skilled employment got deducted by 2 years although his ACS letter is in old format (thus no information about 'skilled after xx/xx').

Thank you for the clarification, if this is true, this going to be a huge setback to a lot of us


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## Dud_Dodo (Sep 10, 2013)

Hello Mark,
First off, Thanks a ton for your helpful guidance, we really appreciate it.

With regards to the topic being discussed here, I'm in a predicament myself and any insight or opinion from you would be much appreciated.

My situation is as follows:
I made up for a total of 70 points, out of which 15 comes from more than 8 years of work experience. I lodged the Visa under 189 on the 14th of Aug. However I had initially completed a Diploma, post which I started working and then completed my Bachelor's degree (Distance) in 2009, post which I have 3 more years of work-ex. ACS has assessed my Bachelor degree as comparable to AQF Bachelor Degree and work experience has been assessed as follows - these are the exact words from the ACS Assessment letter that I received:

"Your Bachelor of Computer Application from XXXX University completed May 2009 has been assessed as comparable to an AQF Bachelor Degree with a major in computing

Your work experience has been calculated as follows on the basis of full time employment of at least 20hrs per week:

Dates: 06/02 - 10/09 (7yrs 4mths)
Position: Senior Business Analyst
Employer: XXXX Inc.
Country: XXXX

Dates: 10/09 - 01/13 (3yrs 3mths)
Position: Senior Advisor
Employer: XXXX Inc.
Country: XXXX"

So now given the new developments, if experience is assessed only post qualifications, would it mean that they'll only consider the one since 2009, which will bring down my points (possibly) to 60 (which is still safe) or do you think that they may further remove two years post qualifications? - in which case I drop to 55.

Do you recommend that to be safe I write IELTS again and score more than 8? I'd scored 9 in S/R/L but only 7.5 in Writing due to which my overall score fell and think I can pretty easily attempt again and score 8 in writing too since I'd not practiced writing even once before the exam.

Please advise. Thank you.


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi DD -

Thanks for the note - what occupation code did you apply under? There is a common misunderstanding that an ACS skills assessment is somehow binding upon DIAC in terms of awarding employment points - DIAC has its own rules and regulations regarding this, which must be considered in conjunction with ACS's. Pls advise what occupation code you applied under and I can comment further.

Best,

Mark Northam


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## Dud_Dodo (Sep 10, 2013)

MarkNortham said:


> Hi DD -
> 
> Thanks for the note - what occupation code did you apply under? There is a common misunderstanding that an ACS skills assessment is somehow binding upon DIAC in terms of awarding employment points - DIAC has its own rules and regulations regarding this, which must be considered in conjunction with ACS's. Pls advise what occupation code you applied under and I can comment further.
> 
> ...


Hey Mark, 
Wow!! Thanks so much for such a quick response mate. With regards to the Occupation Code, I had applied under 261111 (ICT Business Analyst).

Here's the opening sentence of the ACS Assessment letter: "Your skills have been assessed to be suitable for migration under 261111 (ICT Business Analyst) of the ANZSCO Code"


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi DD -

Happy to help. Not possible to assess your exact situation via forum as there are too many details, but generally speaking, you may only claim points for work after you are considered to be "skilled" per the skills assessor. The opening sentence can be misleading as DIAC may have a different view of points, etc. 

DIAC only considers post-qualification work as "skilled", so that may change your situation. But the bigger picture is this: if you cannot provide evidence to support the points you have claimed in your EOI as of the date of invitation, your choices are generally withdrawal or refusal. It is not possible to "add" points via IELTS, etc after the invitation date - at invitation date your EOI and its points claims are locked.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


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## Dud_Dodo (Sep 10, 2013)

Hi Mark,
Thanks for the quick response.

What is worrying me most is whether DIAC will deduct a further 24 months post May 2009, since if they do, then I will drop down to 55 points. However if they do consider all the experience post the date of assessed qualifications, then I still get 5 points which keeps me at 60 points.

Also, I'm not sure if I should file a Form 1220 (Change of Circumstances) to correct the issue around my total work experience, since as I have the old format of the ACS letter, it does not mention an "Deemed to be skilled from" date

By the way, if I withdraw the application, do you think I may get a refund? In which case I can actually withdraw and write IELTS again and file a corrected EOI.



MarkNortham said:


> Hi DD -
> 
> Happy to help. Not possible to assess your exact situation via forum as there are too many details, but generally speaking, you may only claim points for work after you are considered to be "skilled" per the skills assessor. The opening sentence can be misleading as DIAC may have a different view of points, etc.
> 
> ...


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi DD -

Bad news - no refunds from DIAC for refusals or withdrawals!

Not to be overly blunt, but... the key is how many points you claimed in your EOI, not whether you have 60 or more left over after any disqualifications - if you claimed 65 points and cannot evidence 65 points, that's the end of it generally - withdraw or face refusal.

1220 form won't help your situation as the issue is whether you can evidence as many points as you claimed on your EOI.

You'll have to see if DIAC deducts the 24 months, but in cases very similar to yours we've seen in our office, they're doing that very frequently if it is not a recent Australian Bachelor degree that is claimed; if the loss of 2 years results in a loss of points, then it's withdraw or refusal, unfortunately.

After withdrawing, it is certainly an option to update your EOI with corrected work experience and any new info (ie, new IELTS scores, etc) and wait for an invitation. It appears the remaining places for your occupation are being divided 50% for 189 visa applicants and 50% for subclass 190 state sponsored applicants for the remainder of the program year (ie, through June 2014).

Sorry I don't have better news -

Best,

Mark Northam


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## Dud_Dodo (Sep 10, 2013)

That's very sad news indeed. Actually wouldn't the fact that ACS assessed a total of 10 years (as I'd stated above) give me room to try and make my point to them that I claimed all the work experience, as per the ACS assessment? This was clearly since that is how I understood it and only now am I realizing that, that is not how I should be calculating my work-ex. Would it make sense to try and at least discuss it with DIAC when the CO does get assigned?

Also, you mentioned only withdrawal or refusal are the options, would I still have the option after discussing this with the CO, once assigned?

Thanks again for all your help, I really really appreciate it.



MarkNortham said:


> Hi DD -
> 
> Bad news - no refunds from DIAC for refusals or withdrawals!
> 
> ...


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi DD -

It certainly may be worth waiting and talking to your CO once assigned, depending on your other circumstances. The key issue here is that ACS assesses your work only as far as whether the tasks/duties of the work align sufficiently with the ANZSCO definitions for the occupation. The issue of points eligibility for work is entirely within DIAC's domain, and generally is dictated by the minimum requirements per ANZSCO for the occupations (ie, Bachelor Degree or 5 years closely related experience).

Unless time is a problem, it makes sense I would think to wait until your application is assessed and see what the case officer says. They generally will not refuse a visa without letting you know they have a problem with the points claimed (although there is no guarantee that they have to give you an opportunity to explain). 

Best,

Mark Northam


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## Dud_Dodo (Sep 10, 2013)

Thanks Mark. Hoping for the best and keeping my fingers crossed.

Best Regards.


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## Dud_Dodo (Sep 10, 2013)

Hi Mark,
Thank you for all the help you extended to me in advising whats the best course of action. 

Frankly, I'm now considering withdrawing my application rather than getting banned and then filing a fresh EOI after making sure I meet the minimum requirements properly. I was however searching for the address where I need to write to in order to withdraw my application, but didn't find it anywhere. Would you by any chance know where I could find the address that I need to send the written withdrawal letter to, or actually help me with the address if you have it handy? Also, is there any standard format of the withdrawal letter.

Thanks again.


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi DD -

No standard format for the withdrawal letter, other than you need to identify yourself and any DIAC ID numbers you might have (ie, File No, Client ID, etc) if handy. If you have a case officer, then that's the person to address the email to, Other than that, I would check out the Skilled VIsa processing centre in Adelaide, SA.

Before you withdraw and lose $3k, you may want to consider having a detailed consultation with a registered migration agent to confirm that it is a good idea to withdraw (the agent should go through your skills assessment and other documents carefully), advise you of the regulations re: withdrawal, etc, and help you make a big-picture plan re: a new EOI and reapplying. There are situations where state sponsorship may not be available going forward for some occupations and other issues that could come into play - frankly I would be concerned about making such a major decision (to withdraw) purely based on info you received on an online forum from people (including me!) who have not actually seen all the details of your application. I recommend you see an agent first not to drum up work here, but to make sure that you have all the facts at hand from someone qualified who has actually seen all the details & documents of your case.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


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## voodooravi (Aug 24, 2013)

Hi Mark

This is Voodooravi again (the one who started this very thread). I wanted to give a quick update on my case and ask a couple of questions (hopefully my update might help others too).

The last discussion we had on my case was that I / my agent shold pursue convincing the CO for the "points claim" issue. We wrote to different COs regarding this and after much wait, the responses we received were negative (basically they are saying that its unlikely that they will consider skilled employment over and above the deemed skilled date in the ACS letter). Basically, same as how you had sensed. However in my case I haven't really filed the application yet. All email exchanges between us and the COs have taken place before filing the visa application. So to that extent I dont have to worry about the refund. 

We have now decided to opt for state nomination (with 55 points) with the same developer / programmer code. As we understand the first step for us is to withdraw the last EOI. 
Earlier my agent had told me that the EOI can be withdrawn instantly through the system, but very recently she had to write an email to the CO to know the process for withdrawing the EOI because apparently she learnt that the EOI (the one on which the invitation is accepted) cannot be withdrawn by the system. 

Needed your help again in this matter. Is withdrawing the EOI, as a process, only via a CO or through a system?

Thanks,
Voodooravi


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Voodooravi -

Generally you should contact your CO and tell him that you wish to decline the invitation. Once that happens you should then be able to change your EOI information (your EOI will then be unlocked) and you can await a further invitation that may result from state nomination if successful.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


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## voodooravi (Aug 24, 2013)

Hi Mark

Thanks a lot. 

A quick clarification - 'when you say EOI to be unlocked' - does this mean that we can use the same EOI for the state nomination (subclass 190) OR should we apply for a fresh EOI? The current filed EOI is only for subclass 189. 

Thanks once again!

- Voodooravi


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi -

Generally an EOI is locked when an invitation is issued. If you decline the invitation, you should then be able to (once they process the decline) access your EOI again and make changes including the type of visa, etc. 

Best,

Mark Northam


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## Sashi A (Sep 20, 2013)

Hi Everyone, 

I am in a similar situation. 

i received a skills assessment from ACS in 2012 well before the deeming date was introduced. so my skills assessment makes no mention of when i have 'skilled employment.'

i got my degree in 2008 but have been working since 2005. ACS has stated that my employment is all skilled. i am worried that if i have 3 years taken off of my work experience because I got my degree late. 

has anybody lodged their visa application with DIAC yet? If so, did the case officer accept all of the work experience (as stated in the ACS assessment) or did they deem it from the date you obtained your degree?

thanks!


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Sashi -

Just a note - DIAC generally does not give points credit for work undertaken before an applicant has earned the minimum degree for what occupation per ANZSCO. In the case of ACS, they go even farther and determine that if the degree is not an Australian degree, you only become skilled after a certain number of years of work experience AFTER you earn the degree.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


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## aazo001 (Sep 27, 2013)

Hello All,

I am a new member of this forum. I would like to thank all of you for sharing valuable info here. It serves as good source of help. I need some suggestions on my situation. 

I filed for my ACS in June 2013 and have received my assessment letter recently. However, the ACS letter grants me a 'AQF diploma with major in computing' and 'AQF bachelor degree with major in computing' but my work exp is considered 2 yrs less than all of my experience because of this new deemed date. With this, I fall short of my experience by 6 months to complete 3 yrs to be able to claim 5 pts. 

My wife's ACS is still pending and we will be getting it soon. We filed her ACS in July'2013 and her 5 years of experience will be completing in Oct '2013 i.e. approx when we receive the ACS letter. Now, I need to know since we both are working in the same organizations as the latest organisation we mentioned for ACS assessment, will this additional 3 months experience gained be counted? The ACS letter only mentions the date on which we send the documents for assessment i.e. July '2013. but can't we claim this additional experience(july to oct) during EOI filing by providing salary slips and other related documents ?

Also I have some more doubts, with respect to our case :-
1) Does it impact who out of me and my wife is the primary applicant for EOI? Can the non primary applicant land and look for jobs before the primary applicant lands in Australia? How do things change with this?
2) Does the experience on ACS assessment impact in getting the jobs in Australia?
3) If at all we need the ACS Application review whats the process how to go about it..whats the fees?
4) What are the available options for our case?

I would be grateful for any suggestions/advice.


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Aazo -

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the question! Generally time after the skills assessment is processed but before you lodge your EOI can be accounted for with payslips, etc as long as it's the same position with the same employer that was previously assessed. To your questions:

1. Primary applicant on the EOI will be the primary applicant on the visa application if an invitation is generated. Both applicants can certainly look for jobs at any time, but generally secondary applicant must first enter Australia under the PR visa at the same time or after the primary applicant does (but not before). This can vary depending on the visa.

2. ACS assessment seems to mean more to DIBP (formerly DIAC - immigration dept) than it does to Australian employers - but this would be a good question to other posters here who have tried to use their ACS assessment as a job search tool.

3. See ACS site - there are two types of review/appeal - all details there.

4. Not enough info on your case posted to answer this. If you are having doubts about your case, especially whether or not you can justify all points claimed on your EOI, you may want to consult a registered migration agent and do a careful review of your case to make sure you meet all the requirements.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


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## aazo001 (Sep 27, 2013)

Thank you Mark for the prompt response.

I am happy to know we can use payslips etc and do not have to go for ACS review. There is one more doubt I want to clarify, when I went for my IELTS test there were many people who are using agents for the process, and some of them claimed that their agents will assist in their jobs and will arrange for interviews from their home country itself.

Is this possible really ?

Also, could you please let me know what are the charges if we consult a MARA agent considering that we have already got ACS and IELTS. I am currently residing in India.


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Aazo -

Re: agents assisting in job searches, I've heard that some do, but my impression is that most agents focus on the complexities of the visa process and don't have the resources or skills to be great job search people. But if there are good agents who do great at both, that could be a very good resource! 

Additionally, my thought would be that you should look at the success rate of any job search organisation, especially the "pay us to help find you a job" type. Interviews are much easier to arrange than successful hires.

Re: MARA agent consult, many agents including us offer a one-hour consultation (we charge $150 for this) where we go over your case in detail and work through various visa options to determine the best course of action for you. As for fees assisting you with various types of visas, they vary from agent to agent and based on the type of visa typically.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


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## Droopy (Oct 1, 2013)

Hello everybody,

I am new in this forum. First of all I would like to thank you all for the information you are sharing, specially to Mark who gives clear answers which make it eassier to understand many things.

Mark, I would like to ask you couple of things but firstly let me introduce you my case.

I would like to apply for the 189 or 190 as a System Analyst (261112). At the moment I have a positive assessment letter issued by the ACS on January 2012 (old regulation which does not state anything about deeming date). I was graduated on 2001 and my work experience overseas assessed by ACS is from June 2002 until May 2011. Bellow you can see what the assessment letter states

*Your skills have been assessed to be suitable for migration under 261112 (Systems Analyst) of the ANZSCO Code, being the skilled occupation indicated that you intend to nominate in a General Skilled Migration
application.

Your Bachelor of Systems Engineering from XXXXXX University awarded March 2001 has been assessed as comparable to an Australian Bachelor degree with a major in Computing.

For the purpose of your application, you have as of October 2006 satisfied the requirements of the ACS as stated in the PIM 3 policy manual for Group A.

Your skilled employment experience has been calculated as follows on the basis of full time employment of at least 35hrs per week:
Dates: 06/02 - 06/03 (1yrs 0mths)
Position: System Analyst
Employer: XXXX
Country: XXXX

Dates: 07/03 - 05/11 (7yrs 10mths)
Position: System Analyst
Employer: XXXX
Country: XXXX*

At the moment I applied for my assessment, I was working in the same field for another company overseas and I did not give any information to ACS about this job. I finished my work in this company on April 2012 and on June 2012 I started working for a company in Australia, also in the same field. This means that in addition to what the ACS assessed, I also have another 11 months of work experience overseas and 16 months onshore.

I have already lodge an EOI for the 189 with 60 points. Where I am counting 15 points for work experience overseas (8yrs 6mths from October 2003 to April 2012), and 5 points for work experience onshore (1yrs 4mths from June 2012 to October 2013). In addition to this EOI I have lodged, I am thinking about lodging an EOI for the 190.

After reading about what you have previously mentioned I would like to be sure of the following.

1)	In case of receiving an invitation, will I be able to claim this 20 points for work experience (15 offshore+5 onshore) even though I did not mention to the ACS my last two jobs at the time of my assessment application?

2) Could the case officer cut down 2 years from my work experience and therefore I would have only 6yrs 6mths overseas work experience, resulting this in losing 5 points, and therefore, have only a total of 55 points?

3)	My assessment letter states it is valid for 24 months from the date it was issued. Does this mean that I will not be able to apply with this letter for an invitation received after February 2014?

I also would like to ask you, if you know how I can get the most recent PAM3

Thank you in advance for your help and congratulations for this awesome effort you put in helping out all of us!

Best regards,

Droopy


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Droopy -

Thanks for the note - to respond to your questions:

1) Not sure - you could certainly claim the experience for points if you believed it is closely related to your occupation code, but DIBP could ask for either an additional assessment of that non-assessed work from ACS or could assess it themselves for relevance.

2) Yes - likely.

3) Yes.

Hope this helps - please advise if I can assist further -

Best,

Mark Northam


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## Droopy (Oct 1, 2013)

Hi Mark,

Thank you so much for your fast reply.

I expected these answer but I wanted to check it with someone who has knowledge and experience.

About the PAM3, is there any way I can get the latest version?

Best regards,

Droopy


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Droopy -

It's a subscription service from DIBP - so you have go logon and then start looking up the parts of the immigration regulations that you want policy on - it's not a downloadable type product. Here's the info:

LEGENDcom

Best,

Mark Northam


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## Droopy (Oct 1, 2013)

I can see Mark.

Thanks again.

You are such nice person.

Regards,

Droopy


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Droopy -

You're welcome! Please advise if I can assist further and best of luck with your application.

Best,

Mark Northam


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## FMustafa (Oct 3, 2013)

Hello Mark,
1st of all i would like to thank you for providing very valuable information and would also like to share my case with you and other fellow members, i applied for AUS way back in 2002/2003 and was assessed by ACS for not having a mandatory 6 years of work experience for the occupation i applied for althou my qualification was assessed as equal to group B of PIM2 Iusse 1.1 


> GROUP B
> Qualifications Criteria
> 2.1.6 Applicants with
> ß an Australian AQF Diploma or Australian AQF Advanced Diploma with a major in IT, or an
> ...


i want to apply again, but this time around my professional qualification have increased as i've achieved 7 more IT certifications along with 9+ years of experience and have worked as IT Engineer/Sys Admin, Deputy Manager & currently i am working as Manager IT Division.

Now my question is, while applying again for assessment from ACS, should i upload old assessment result which i received from ACS ? is that doing that will help my cause?
Waiting for ur valuable response.
Regards,
FM


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## Anastasia (Jul 4, 2013)

Hello Mark!

Thank you for valuable advises! Could you please help me in my case. I am going to apply for EOI for 189 or 190 in occupation of Management Accountant. I have my IELTS ready and recently received positive reply from CPA that I am skilled for this occupation. What confuse me is that they accepted only 1,5 years from my total 5 years employment. I have a Backelor degree in Economics, which I received 10 years ago. It was assessed as equative to Australian by CPA, but still they recognised my employment only after I received my professional qualification CIMA 1,5 years ago. 
So, what to do? With reduced employment I will not be able to claim any points for that and thus my total score is reducing to 55 points only...
My question is: can I still declare that my 5 years employment is relevant in skillselect application as this employment have been carried out after completion of bachelor degree or it is safer to not claim any points for employment and apply for 190 visa?? 

By the way, in second case I would like to apply to NSW. They have my occupation in their plan, but how to find out how badly they want this occupation, how many places do they have.

Thanks in advance!!!

Anastasia


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## Row D (Oct 17, 2013)

Mark,

Kindly share your suggestions and thoughts.

189 VISA - 2613 Analyst Programmer - 60 points - EOI submitted on 9th Aug 2013.

I come from B.E Electronics and Communication Engineering background. I had my skills assessment done by ACS on 2-Apr-2013. ACS had given 6 years as skilled experince for my offshore experience saying related to the ANESCO job code. I claim 10 points here.

I am waiting for EOI invite at the moment and I would like to know that if I lodge my VISA application post invite, will DIAC consider all the 6 years as the skilled employment or will they cut down 5 years from offshore experience as my education background is B.E ECE. This concern I am raising is because of the recent changes ACS brought in during May 2013, where in my assessment was done prior to that. I may lose 10 points in this case.

Will there be any refund if DIAC rejects my VISA?


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Row D -

Thanks for the note. First thing, DIBP does't give refunds if it refuses a visa. Sorry!

Regarding your skilled employment, the May 2013 change in ACS skills assessments was a formatting change - the requirement for certain numbers of years of skilled work experience depending on the type of qualification you hold have been around for some time. There isn't enough info in your post to determine exactly how many years ACS will deduct - we've seen cases recently where the applicant had the old format ACS report that didn't have a specific deeming date on it and the DIBP case officer applied the ACS formula himself to "deduct" years of experience, which resulted in one case I saw recently where an applicant was given the choice of withdrawing their visa application or facing refusal because of this.

You need to contact ACS and get some sort of confirmation of exactly how they view your qualification and how many years of experience they "require" for you to be considered skilled after those years of experience. I would not leave it up to the case officer to reverse-engineer this number. You need evidence from ACS as to how their policies apply to your specific case. At least then you will know what to expect and can adjust your EOI accordingly as necessary. Remember that just having ACS say your experience is closely related to the ANZSCO code is not an indication of whether that experience will be fully accepted for skilled visa points - the application of ACS's policy re: requiring a certain number of years of experience is critical.

Hope this helps - (also deleted your duplicate post)

Best,

Mark Northam


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## Row D (Oct 17, 2013)

Thanks Mark. This information certainly helps. I will talk to ACS and get back to you.


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## lmittal (Oct 17, 2013)

Hi Mark,

I would like to have your expert opinion on my case, if you could kindly spare few valuable minutes suggesting:

ANZSCO: 263111 (Computer Network and Systems Engineer)

ACADEMIC QUALIFICATIONS:

1. MS (Masters in Sciences) from BITS, Pilani, Rajasthan, India (Level 1 Deemed University) Software Systems	Completed: December 2012	Work Integrated Program	(CGPA 8.38) 
2. MBA from IMT, Ghaziabad Dual-Degree course completion with specialization in SYSTEMS and HR	Completed: June 2009	Distance Learning Program	(Dual degree, 3 year duration course) 
3. BE in Computer Engg. (AMIE), from Institute of Engineering, India	Computer Engineering Completed: June 2004	Part-Time 
4. Diploma in Electronics & Tele-Comm. Engg., Board of Technical Education, Delhi	Electronics & Tele-Comm. Engg.	Completed: June 1997	Full-Time (3 years)	Secured topmost rank in entire engineering college for 4 consecutive semesters. 
5. Advanced Diploma in Computer Hardware and Lan Engineering	Computer Hardware and LAN Engineering	Completed: July 1998	1 year duration 
6. MCSE	Microsoft Windows NT 4.0	Completed: Jan 1999	Duration: 4 months Have Microsoft MCP Login and access code.

TECHNICAL CERTIFICATIONS AND TRAININGS ACHIEVED

Certifications

• Six Sigma Green Belt certified 
• ITIL v2.0 Foundation Certification 
• SCNA (Sun Certified Network Administrator) in Solaris 10 
• SCSA (Sun Certified System Administrator) in Solaris 10 
• HP-UX CSA (Certified Systems Administrator) 
• OCP (Oracle Certified Professional) in Oracle 9i. Cleared exams with more than 95% marks in first attempt. 
• MCSE (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer) in Windows NT 4.0.

Technical Trainings

• Oracle Fundamentals and Administration, organized by TCS at C-DOT. 
• Certificate course in Shell Scripting and Programming from Center for Information Technology, Delhi. 
• IBM AIX 5L System Administration organized by IBM 
• HP-UX System Administration, organized by HP India at C-DOT. 
• HP-UX Network Administration, organized by HP India at C-DOT. 
• Veritas Volume Manager 
• Veritas Netbackup 5.1, 6.2 
• Veritas Cluster Server 
• SNIA Level-1 Knowledge Delivery
• Clariion Storage Administration
• Brocade SAN Switch Administration
• VMware Virtualization

Management and Process related Trainings

• Project Management Training 
• Six Sigma Green Belt by CSC 
• ITIL (IT Infrastructure Library) Foundation by CSC 
• Time Management by C-DoT, for enhancing the Inter-personal and management skills.

Work Experience: (Latest first)
Company 1: Since October, 2010 - Till Date (Oct 2013 and beyond)	
Designation: Systems Specialist
Documents prepared: Letter from HR on company letter head, 1 Reference letter from colleague
Company 2: Since August, 2009 - April, 2010 
Designation: Unix Systems Administrator
Documents prepared: Letter from HR on company letter head
Company 3: Since September, 2006 - August, 2009 
Designation: Sr. Engineer Systems Administration
Documents prepared: Letter from HR on company letter head, 1 reference letter from colleague
Company 4: Since January 2006 - September 2006 
Designation: Support Engineer
Documents prepared: Letter from HR on company letter head, 1 reference letter from colleague
Company 5: Since June -1999 - Jan 2006 
Designation: Research Associate
Documents prepared: Letter from Divison Head on company letter head, 2 reference letters from colleagues
Company 6: Since July-1998 - June 1999 
Designation: LAN and Server Administrator
Documents prepared: Self declaration affidavit of the experience duration and attested by the Notary

Age: 34
IELTS: 7 (All sections)

Can you please suggest what evaluation can I stand from ACS ?


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Imittal -

Thanks for the note. Only ACS can give you any informed opinion on this since it's their assessment (opinion) of your qualification and work experience that are the determining factors. They will take your Bachelor degree completion date + 2 years if they determine your degree is equivalent to an Australian Bachelor degree with a closely related major (you could count work experience sometime in 2006 if this is the case). Other factors that can play a part is exactly what the work reference letters, etc say - whether the duties align well with the ANZSCO descriptions, etc. There are many, many parts to these applications and it takes a careful review to predict how things may go. 

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


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## lmittal (Oct 17, 2013)

Hi,

Thanks for the reply Mark.

Some of the aspects I was focusing at were:

1. All my experiences (in last 6 companies) have been closely related to my selected occupation. Though the difference is, on basis of which qualification do they assess my experience.

Starting from June 1999 till Oct 2013, it will make out a total number of years as 13 years and 11 months (leaving aside the gap of April 2010 till Oct 2010 for 6 months). Though, for this calculation only, I am not considering the experience obtained from Company6 as I have just given the affidavit (self-declaration of experience) and considering they may not accept it as a sufficient document.

1A. If they assess my experience on basis of Qualification (1) (completed in 2012), then I think they would just be considering me a toddler.

1B. If they assess my experience on basis of Qualification (2) (MBA), then it is pretty irrelevant as per my selected occupation.

1C. If they assess my experience on basis of Qualification (3) (BE - Computer Engineering, completed in June 2004), then obviously they would be deducting 2 years out of my experience after June 2004, which makes only the experience from June 2006 till Oct 2013 as countable, which will come out to be 6 years 11 months. Making it falling short for winning 15 points.

1D. If they assess my experience on basis of Qualification (4) (Diploma in Electronics & Tele-Comm. Engg., Completed - 1997), then they will consider this pretty unrelated (ICT Minor) to my selected occupation. Hence, as per the rule, they will straight away deduct complete 6 years out of my total experience, thereby making it 7 years 11 months. Making it falling short for winning 15 points.

1E. If they assess my experience on basis of Qualification (5) (Advanced Diploma in Computer Hardware and Lan Engineering, Completed: July 1998), since this 1 year advanced diploma is closely related to my selected occupation, they may deduct only 5 years from my total experience, finally making it as 8 years and 11 months. Making it enough to win 15 points.

1F. If they assess my experience on basis of Qualification (6) (MCSE:	Microsoft Windows NT 4.0	Completed: Jan 1999), since they consider MCSE as equivalent to a ICT Major at AQF Diploma Level, they may only deduct 5 years from my total experience, thereby making it total as 8 years 11 months and giving me 15 points.

I learned that they grant the maximum number of years, as skilled years, on the basis of respective comparisons among all of the earned qualifications. Hence, considering all the above calculations, they must consider points 1D and 1F above to grant the maximum number of years (8 years 11 months) of skilled experience. Thereby, making me attain 15 points.

2. Another factor to consider is that, if I apply for the DIAC application in Jan or Feb 2014, I will be having further 4 more months of experience added to my candidature. If I produce sufficient evidence of my experience till then (like salary slips) and these 4 months get added to my total years of experience.
In that case, even if ACS grants me lower number of years as skilled experience (as in case of 1D above), after adding 4 months to my experience, it may become 7 years 11 months + 4 months = 8 years 3 months. Thereby, making me earn 15 points for experience.

Do please advice if I am dreaming all these things correctly or please advice on what you think about it.

Also, as I am thinking to claim 4 more months (as mentioned in point 2 above), can I do so while I submit my application to DIAC and what all proofs/evidences/documents do I need to produce if I make the claim of additional months of experience earned between ACS application and DIAC application.

Thanks

Lalit



MarkNortham said:


> Hi Imittal -
> 
> Thanks for the note. Only ACS can give you any informed opinion on this since it's their assessment (opinion) of your qualification and work experience that are the determining factors. They will take your Bachelor degree completion date + 2 years if they determine your degree is equivalent to an Australian Bachelor degree with a closely related major (you could count work experience sometime in 2006 if this is the case). Other factors that can play a part is exactly what the work reference letters, etc say - whether the duties align well with the ANZSCO descriptions, etc. There are many, many parts to these applications and it takes a careful review to predict how things may go.
> 
> ...


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Lalit -

Sounds like a rather complex ACS application! There are too many details, assumptions and multiple scenarios presented for me to respond in any meaningful way on the forum - the core issue is how ACS will evaluate each of your degrees, particularly the ones in scenarios 1E and 1F. Overlapping with this is the ANZSCO requirement of a Bachelor degree (assessed) or 5 years of experience and whether ACS and DIBP agree with your assertion that all of the work references you are claiming for points are closely related to your selected occupation.

Re: additional work experience after the skills assessment, as long as it's in the same position & employer that was assessed (ie, a continuation of the current job you held when you applied for the skills assessment typically), then a further skills assessment of the extra months is generally not required - payslips to indicate continued employment along with a letter from your employer confirming this should be enough for DIBP. Also note that all work experience must be before the date you are invited to apply for a visa - everything is "frozen" as of the point of invitation - additional work experience after you have received an invitation is not applicable.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


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## lmittal (Oct 17, 2013)

Thanks a lot Mark for your reply, you have been delightfully fast in your response.

Considering your opinion, I do consider options 1D/E/F could be handled with some effort. But, the only scare is for the option 1C (BE) and considering that I won't be able to make it up to 15 points for my experience. But, still then I would be standing in the queue of 60 points to get an invite.

I am too going via a registered MARA agent but that gentleman too is very doubtful about how ACS would respond at each step of my experience and qualification. He has rather already cautioned me on collecting too many docs in support of my case, as in his opinion sending too many docs to ACS would annoy them  May be he is correct, out of his experience with ACS. No salary slips, appointment letters, experience letters sent to ACS and ACS has not demanded any documents yet. My application was in Phase 4A on the next day.

Thanks

Lalit



MarkNortham said:


> Hi Lalit -
> 
> Sounds like a rather complex ACS application! There are too many details, assumptions and multiple scenarios presented for me to respond in any meaningful way on the forum - the core issue is how ACS will evaluate each of your degrees, particularly the ones in scenarios 1E and 1F. Overlapping with this is the ANZSCO requirement of a Bachelor degree (assessed) or 5 years of experience and whether ACS and DIBP agree with your assertion that all of the work references you are claiming for points are closely related to your selected occupation.
> 
> ...


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## dharmesh312 (Oct 29, 2013)

Hi,

I am in a very similar situation as yours. What was the outcome of your visa application? Did you withdraw it or CO refused it or you were lucky enough to convince the CO? Please intimate me of your outcome because I am exactly in the same situation as yours. I have also lodged my visa application and waiting for the case officer to be assigned. I was not aware of this rule when I lodged my application as I am not going through any agent. Kindly update me on your issue.



Dud_Dodo said:


> That's very sad news indeed. Actually wouldn't the fact that ACS assessed a total of 10 years (as I'd stated above) give me room to try and make my point to them that I claimed all the work experience, as per the ACS assessment? This was clearly since that is how I understood it and only now am I realizing that, that is not how I should be calculating my work-ex. Would it make sense to try and at least discuss it with DIAC when the CO does get assigned?
> 
> Also, you mentioned only withdrawal or refusal are the options, would I still have the option after discussing this with the CO, once assigned?
> 
> Thanks again for all your help, I really really appreciate it.


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## aus_dhar (Nov 16, 2013)

MarkNortham said:


> Hi Voodooravi -
> 
> Unless DIAC is ready to give you the points for the years that ACS didn't (unlikely, unfortunately), you'll have to withdraw your application and update your EOI accordingly. I would suggest putting up a STRONG fight with DIAC, politely of course, but stating that the evidence you've provided clearly states that those additional years beyond ACS' view show skilled employment. You need to make a detailed, complete submission and quote the relevant regulations and policy, but I think it's worth the fight. Plus, what is the alternative? They've halted state sponsorship of your occupation. That leaves a strong fight for the 189 and full credit for your work as your primary option.
> 
> ...


Hello Mark,
I am new to this group and this is my first post. I have read your replies in this thread and all the replies are of a great help. Thank you very much for your inputs.

My situation is very similar to the other cases. I would like to emphasize on my particular case and request your guidance on how to proceed further. Please find the details below

Occupation: 261313 (Software Engineer)
Experience: 6+ years.

As per the new rules from ACS, I have received the response from ACS in which 4 years of my work experience is deducted. My work experience is as follows

1st Company Dates: 03/07 - 08/10 (3yrs 5mths)
2nd Company Dates: 08/10 - 05/13 (2yrs 9mths)

My experience after March 2011 is considered as appropriate and relevant by ACS. 
I understood the fact that I will not be getting any points for my work experience. I would be left with 55 points without work experience and hence I have applied for a State Sponsorship, which I have received successfully.

The problem is while applying for EOI, I have entered all my work experience as "related" and the system has calculated 10 points for my work experience. I received the invitation with the additional 10 points which I am not supposed to get.
As I have not lodged my application yet the option before me is to withdraw the current invitation and apply for a new EOI asking the state to nominate again. I am ready to do this. Do you foresee any issue in doing so? How do I withdraw an invitation? Please suggest.

While providing my work experience details in the new EOI, should I provide my experience before March 2011 (which is not considered by ACS) as "not related"? If so, when I provide my experience before March 2011 as not related, should I mention my second company experience from Sep 2010 to March 2011 as not related and provide the same experience in the same company after March 2011 as related? (This would create two entries for the same company as related and non-related)

Wouldn't that raise a question from CO that how can I give the same kind of experience as related and non-related? Or is it okay to give like that because ACS has assessed that way.

Please advise.
Thanks in advance


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi -

Generally OK to put unskilled experience as unrelated to avoid the automatic points-generation issue - if a period of work is split and part is considered skilled and part not, better to put 2 different entries into the EOI - one unrelated, one related - you can explain the issue to the case officer if he doesn't figure out from the ACS report why you did that.

You will need to decline the invitation - there should be specific info on the invitation itself as to how to do this. 

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


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## Adam Grey (Nov 8, 2013)

MarkNortham said:


> Hi -
> 
> Generally OK to put unskilled experience as unrelated to avoid the automatic points-generation issue - if a period of work is split and part is considered skilled and part not, better to put 2 different entries into the EOI - one unrelated, one related - you can explain the issue to the case officer if he doesn't figure out from the ACS report why you did that.


It would be interesting to see the statistics for the amount of visas that have been rejected due to a mistake regarding 'relevant' or 'not relevant' work experience. It must be the most common issue with the system.

Even with the implementation of more info during the application and the points confirmation page, it's still needlessly confusing and the wording sometimes makes it look like the question is being answered inaccurately. Like you say it often requires an explanation note to the case officer which surely highlights that particular section needs improving.


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Adam -

Great point. We're seeing a rapidly increasing number of cases where an applicant has put down incorrect information re: work experience and then is left with two bad choices: withdraw the application, or get a refusal. Either way there's no refund and months and months of time and effort are lost. Since the points criteria is based on time of application, there can be few remedies available to fix this sort of thing when it's discovered during processing, long after any changes can be made to the points-affected elements of the application.

Best,

Mark Northam


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## aus_dhar (Nov 16, 2013)

MarkNortham said:


> Hi Adam -
> 
> Great point. We're seeing a rapidly increasing number of cases where an applicant has put down incorrect information re: work experience and then is left with two bad choices: withdraw the application, or get a refusal. Either way there's no refund and months and months of time and effort are lost. Since the points criteria is based on time of application, there can be few remedies available to fix this sort of thing when it's discovered during processing, long after any changes can be made to the points-affected elements of the application.
> 
> ...


Hello Mark,

Thanks for the inputs. It really is helping me to streamline the further process.

Have you come across any case where a visa application is either refused or asked to withdraw even if the experience was updated on the way that was mentioned by me in my earlier post?


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Aus-Dhar -

If you're referring to splitting a job into a points-qualifying section and a non-points-qualifying section if the job crosses the "boundary" between skilled and non-skilled set out by ACS, have never seen a problem with that. But an invitation based on points you cannot prove, even if the EOI system calculated the points, is bound to fail. The EOI system cannot be blamed, etc.

Best,

Mark Northam


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## aus_dhar (Nov 16, 2013)

MarkNortham said:


> Hi Aus-Dhar -
> 
> If you're referring to splitting a job into a points-qualifying section and a non-points-qualifying section if the job crosses the "boundary" between skilled and non-skilled set out by ACS, have never seen a problem with that. But an invitation based on points you cannot prove, even if the EOI system calculated the points, is bound to fail. The EOI system cannot be blamed, etc.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the prompt response Mark. Will keep updating as my process progresses.


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## Francesco (Nov 20, 2013)

To Mark Northam

Hello Mark,

I am new to this group and this is my first post. I have read your replies in this thread and all the replies are of a great help. Thank you very much for your inputs.

I have not submit my skills assessments to ACS, before I would like to evaluate the best way to do it.

Please find the details/Infos below:

Occupation: 261312 - Developer Programmer

Experience: 7+ years.

Education: Master Engineering in Electronic ( 5-year program plus thesis ) in April 2003 University of Florence, Italy. It was the result of a 1-year internship. 
My work experience is as follows 

1st Company Dates: 03/04 – 04/06 (2yrs 2mths) Developer Programmer - Italy
2nd Company Dates: 09/08 - Present (5yrs 3mths) Developer Programmer – Spain
07/12 - Present Expat in Australia with a 457 Visa (Developer Programmer)

In the 2-year gap I was employed by the second company as Software Trainer (I guess it will be considered as unskilled experience).

Questions:

1) My Bachelor degree in Electronics will be considered Minor or Major ICT? 
2) How many years of skilled work experience will be needed?
3) The Employment reference letters must be originals or could be in electronic format (signed and scanned)? I am in Australia at the moment while both companies are overseas.

Thank you again for your help and useful advices.
Regards
Francesco


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## aseeem (Nov 26, 2013)

Hi Mark,
You've really been generous answering all the queries. I am hoping you won't mind answering mine too. I would really grateful to you.

I did assessment from Australian Computer Society in July 2012 and it came positive for 5 years and 3 months of experience which they have state is suitable for migration. 

However, I have a doubt after going through other threads in this forum. 

I joined bachelor in engineering (computer) in 2003 and it was to be completed in 2007 but because I had failed in 2 subjects, it took me till 2009 to complete. My course completed in 2007 but I had to give 2 exams again. I worked as software engineer till I gave the exam. Now my transcript reads start date as 2003 and end date as 2009.

But I started working from 2007 as my course was complete although I had to re-appear for 2 exams later. 

So does my experience be counted by the Case Officer from 2007 as the ACS did??
Am I in trouble? Do I have chances of visa refusal??

Could you please suggest What I should do?
I have 7 each in IELTS - 10 points
Bachelors Degree in Computer Engineering - 15 points
Age - 30 points
Work Experience 5 yrs (according to ACS) - 10 points
Total - 65 points as of now.


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Aseem -

Thanks for the note. Not possible to do a detailed assessment on your case without much more data - we do these at our consulting sessions. Generally speaking work experience gained prior to your completing a qualification is not able to be counted for points by DIBP. Your case is a bit unique because only the exams were the issue, however it will come down to exactly when DIBP determines you completed all of the work necessary for the degree. Would need to do a detailed examination of all your documents to give you any advice regarding that. Remember that ACS doesn't really get involved in points awarding or calculation, only whether work is "skilled" or not. You may want to start preparing documents and arguments as to why your course was "complete" despite the additional exams necessary as I expect it will come down to this issue in your case. 

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Francesco -

Thanks for the note - have been swamped with work and am behind in reading the forum - sorry for the delay!

Re: Minor or Major (question 1), impossible to predict - ACS will analyse the subjects in your bachelor degree and see how they relate to an ICT Major, etc. 

Re: question 2, this depends on the result of question 1

Re: docs, ACS is online, so colour scans of certified copies are OK.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


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## aus_dhar (Nov 16, 2013)

aus_dhar said:


> The problem is while applying for EOI, I have entered all my work experience as "related" and the system has calculated 10 points for my work experience. I received the invitation with the additional 10 points which I am not supposed to get.
> As I have not lodged my application yet the option before me is to withdraw the current invitation and apply for a new EOI asking the state to nominate again. I am ready to do this. Do you foresee any issue in doing so? How do I withdraw an invitation? Please suggest.
> 
> Please advise.
> Thanks in advance


Hello Mark,

As mentioned earlier, I have already received the invitation with 70 points. I have received the state nomination, applied the EOI for the 190 visa and the state invited me through skill select.

Now that I have to withdraw the current invitation and provide a new EOI with reduced points, do you think there would be any issue with the state to invite again? My nomination with the state is valid for 4 months and I still have 3 months time.

Is it okay to inform them that I want to withdraw the current invitation and ask them to invite again by providing the new EOI. Does this happen normally with the states?

Please advise.


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Aus_dhar -

You will need to study the state rules very carefully - some states have rules that allow for only one sponsorship, and all the states are different and can change their rules at any time. If in doubt, I'd suggest giving the state authorities that sponsored you a call or email and letting them know the situation (get the name of the person you speak with too) and see if they will allow what you want to do.

Best,

Mark Northam


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## aus_dhar (Nov 16, 2013)

MarkNortham said:


> Hi Aus_dhar -
> 
> You will need to study the state rules very carefully - some states have rules that allow for only one sponsorship, and all the states are different and can change their rules at any time. If in doubt, I'd suggest giving the state authorities that sponsored you a call or email and letting them know the situation (get the name of the person you speak with too) and see if they will allow what you want to do.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the very quick response Mark. I will check the state authorities as suggested.


----------



## aus_dhar (Nov 16, 2013)

MarkNortham said:


> Hi Aus_dhar -
> 
> You will need to study the state rules very carefully - some states have rules that allow for only one sponsorship, and all the states are different and can change their rules at any time. If in doubt, I'd suggest giving the state authorities that sponsored you a call or email and letting them know the situation (get the name of the person you speak with too) and see if they will allow what you want to do.
> 
> ...


Hi Mark,

I need one more help from you  regarding the EOI and Invitation. I was going through the rules regarding the EOI and Invitations and found the following quote in the booklet 1406

"Be aware: If you do not make a valid visa application after receiving 2 invitations, your EOI will be removed from SkillSelect "

Can you please through some light on what does this mean?

The reason I am asking this question is, I have received two invitations from two states. I did not make use of the first invitation as I wanted to go for the second state. Regarding the second state invitation, as I have discussed earlier the points were inflated and I had to withdraw that invitation and go for a new Invitation. Both the invitations are based on different EOI's.

FYI : The first Invitation is expired already and the second invitation would be expired next week.

Now, please explain what does the above quote mean and how this is related to my case. Can I go ahead and make a new EOI and provide it to the state government to nominate again.

Please advise. I sincerely thank you for your wonderful and prompt responses despite multiple questions from me.


----------



## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Aus_dhar -

Thanks for the note and kind words. The quoted information means that for a single EOI, if you decline (or allow to expire) 2 invitations for that EOI, the EOI will be dropped from the system. You could then lodge a new EOI that would have a new effective date.

While successive EOI's is not necessarily a problem with DIBP, I know that in some cases state governments have limits in their own regulations on the number of times a person can be sponsored, etc, so I would advise a very close look at those regulations to make sure whatever you're planning will work out at the state level.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


----------



## aus_dhar (Nov 16, 2013)

MarkNortham said:


> Hi Aus_dhar -
> 
> Thanks for the note and kind words. The quoted information means that for a single EOI, if you decline (or allow to expire) 2 invitations for that EOI, the EOI will be dropped from the system. You could then lodge a new EOI that would have a new effective date.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the information Mark. I have checked with the state and the state is okay to nominate again with the new EOI. I wanted to be compliant with the DIAC regulations so was trying to get clarity. Now I can proceed with submitting a new EOI.

Thanks once again Mark...


----------



## aus_dhar (Nov 16, 2013)

aus_dhar said:


> Thank you very much for the information Mark. I have checked with the state and the state is okay to nominate again with the new EOI. I wanted to be compliant with the DIAC regulations so was trying to get clarity. Now I can proceed with submitting a new EOI.
> 
> Thanks once again Mark...


Hello Mark,

Further update to my application, I have received the new invitation from the state and have lodged my 190 visa application. Thanks for your suggestions so far.

I have another question. Not sure if this is the correct thread to post this. As this would be a continuation to the discussion we had above I am posting it here.

I have undergone my medicals 2 weeks back. The have checked the clinic and they have confirmed that the medicals are uploaded a week ago. Now, how do we know about the status of the medicals? I have checked the online application and the link "Organize your medicals" is disabled.

Does this mean that the medicals are cleared or does it just indicate that the medicals are uploaded?

Please advise


----------



## SamAusMig (Jan 14, 2014)

Hi Mark,

If you can advice on below matter then it is really great


Below is my situation

I have got engaged with my partner 2 months ago. Basically we are legally married( We have the marriage certificate ). Only pending thing is wedding function which is going to be held on May 2014.

Currently I work in Middle East and my fiance is in my home country. I am planing to bring her here(Middle East) in May after the wedding function

I have applied for 189 independent subclass visa on November 2013 and mentioned my fiance as partner who got engaged. Right now I have applied Visa for myself only.

This Monday, the Case officer was assigned for my visa application and requested my fiance Police Clearance Certificate and Medical. CO has mentioned my fiance as non-Migrating Applicants.

My Plan is to get the Visa(PR) then go to Australia, get the stamp and come back after a few days. I have a solid job here now. So my plan is to migrate Aus permanently in December 2014. But by that time I will be married (Wedding function will be completed) and we will be living together.

.

My question is as follows

1) Can I add my partner to my current 189 visa application with the above condition ?

If so what are the evidence that I should provide (I can provide Marriage certificate and IDD mobile details bills for last 2 months . Nothing much evidence I have now) ?

If I add my partner with the above condition, Is there any risk to my visa application ?


2) If I do not include her now, is there anyway to get her partner visa after my wedding in May 2014 while I am outside Aus (Assumed that I will be granted visa for current 189 visa application)?


I understand that this is not the right thread but since I wanted an advise urgently, I had to post it here

Thanx


----------



## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

It may be an idea to start a new thread to make sure you get the right responses.

I don't know much about partner or skilled visas, but from what I've read you may be able to add your partner if you can legitimately declare her as either your legal spouse (through marriage) or your de facto partner (typically have lived together for 12+ months). I'm not sure to what extent you'd need to prove your relationship other than simply providing a marriage certificate. If you add her after initially lodging the application, you may be requested to provide more thorough evidence of the genuine nature of your relationship which perhaps could be difficult given the short time you've been married.

If your 189 visa is approved, you absolutely cannot add her after that point as that visa is no longer in the application stage. She'd need to apply for a partner visa with you as her sponsor. Then the challenge will be that if the sponsor is a PR, they're expected to be living in Australia so it would be difficult to apply and have the visa granted while you're in the Middle East.

Hopefully other posters can add more details and information.


----------



## amanpreet (Apr 29, 2014)

*experience while filing visa*

I filed ACS on 13 August and I got it accessed on 20 Nov 13. 
My skills are assessed for migration under 261313 software Engineer.

Following Employment after july 2008 is considered as skilled and relevant to Software engineer
Date --07/06--11/08 (2 Y 4 M), Senior Systems Engineer
12/08-08/10 (1 Y 8 M), senior software engineer
08/10-05/13 (2 Y 9 M), Solution Analyst--- (actually it more related to Systems analyst but they have access it as software engineer also, which is a good thing)

To closely relate my master and bachelor degree to AQF, they have deducted 2 years of experience as per their summary of criteria

While Filing my EOI, i followed exact dates provided by ACS which is total 58 months starting from July 2008, As i read in EOI booklet that dates as per acs should be provided. experience was automatically calculated as less than 5 years (58months). Total score was 60.

Now i have got letter of invite. So as per "16.3 When is an applicant skilled", can I claim experience from 20 Nov 2013 till today , which will make me eligible for 5 years.

My question is there is no information or instruction on skillselect site for visa applicants , what should be experience or "date to" while filing visa. 
As per diac rules can the visa be rejected ? if more points are claimed not steated as in eoi, as in skillset book they state that visa is based on eoi and same data should be provide , for any change eoi should be updated.

1. Please advice, which is more safe for me , to write 3 years exp which will give 60 points or 5 years for 65 points and "date to" as today's date not 31 may which was in acs.
2. will diac cause any problem with solution analyst post which is more related to system analyst and less to software engineer
3. in visa application,it is mentioned immediate experience , will it be problem if i have to show experience till 31may as per acs

Below is my EOI breakage
age : 30 points 
Ielts : 10
degree: 15
exp : 5


----------



## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Amanpreet -

Great questions. Generally if you have continued working in the same job that has already been assessed by ACS, you can get a letter from your employer to show that you continued in that same job until XXX date (whatever date you wish to claim), then DIBP will refer to the ACS assessment of that job even though you continued in the job past the date of the skills assessment.

As to whether the job is relevant for your occupation, DIBP generally looks to ACS to determine this, and it looks like ACS has determined that it is relevant to your occupation. There is not a problem with claiming more points than was on the EOI (but probably no point in it since you have already received an invitation) since time has passed since you lodged your EOI. As long as all data, especially data for points, was accurate in your EOI, that's good. If you have continued in the same job and not updated the EOI, that's not generally a problem, but you may want to update that info on the application as long as you have evidence to prove the additional period of employment.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam



amanpreet said:


> I filed ACS on 13 August and I got it accessed on 20 Nov 13.
> My skills are assessed for migration under 261313 software Engineer.
> 
> Following Employment after july 2008 is considered as skilled and relevant to Software engineer
> ...


----------



## sandeep1219 (May 14, 2014)

hi Mark

I finished b.tech IT in India (2006), then i have 2 years experience as a Developer Programmer in India (May 2006 to June 2008)

then i did Masters of IT, in Australia (2011), after finishing i came back to India, then again i have 2 years experience as a Developer Programmer in India.(Jan 2012 to May 2014)

Presently i have 50 points and IELTS 6 in all, if i get 5 more points for experience i can go with 190 visa.

My education and experience is major in ICT, closely related to nominated occupation

will ACS deduct experience or will it consider 3 or 4 years of work experience ?


----------



## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Sandeep -

No way to tell for sure, but with a non-Australian degree, it is likely they will deduct 2 years work experience - could be more depending on the relevancy of the degree (in ACS' opinion) - see:

https://www.acs.org.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/7324/Summary-of-Criteria-2014.pdf

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


----------



## sandeep1219 (May 14, 2014)

Thank you Mark, 
Today i met MARA agent, he is saying, i will get 5 points for my experience because education and experience are closely related to ICT major, ACS is not deducting for post Australian study skill. 

Is it true ? or they bluffing ?


----------



## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Sandeep -

See the ACS chart for details - the complicating part with you is whether the Australian Master degree will override the overseas Bachelor, and whether they will give you full credit for the work completed *before* the Australian Masters without deducting any. Suggest you contact ACS with your specific situation and talk to them about exactly how they would handle this.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


----------



## sandeep1219 (May 14, 2014)

Thank you Mark, Thanks for your valuable time, i will contact ACS hope i will get positive feedback.


----------



## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

You're welcome - glad to help! Make sure you carefully tell them about both of your degrees, and the years of the work experience you are looking to claim.

Best,

Mark Northam


----------



## sandeep1219 (May 14, 2014)

hi mark,

i mailed ACS, they didn't provided any information,

i have been applied ACS after completion of my Masters in Australia without experience, ACS assessed as follows.

*Your Master of Information Technology from University of Ballarat completed Novemebr 2011 has been assessed as comparable to an AQF Master Degree with major in computing.*

*Your Bachelor of Technology from Jawaharlal Nehru Technological University completed April 2006 has been assessed as comparable to an AQF Master Degree with major in computing.*

which is already expired in this month.
Now i am applying with experience. So is there any chance to get positive assessment with 3 years experience.
please suggest me.


----------



## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Sandeep1219 -

No way to tell for sure - depends on whether ACS considers your degree to be "closely related to the nominated occupation" - if so, it looks like they will only deduct 2 years of work experience - if not, then they would require 4 years.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


----------



## Hari556677889 (Jun 1, 2014)

*Need Mark's help urgently...*

Hi Mark,

I have received invite to apply under 2611 on 26/5/2014...

I submitted EOI on 24/7/2013 with 60 points...

I got ACS certified in October 2012 without any reduction in experience....

I get 60 points only if all my experience is considered...Otherwise, I fall to 
55 points....

Can I go ahead and submit the application or shouldn't I go ahead ?

I am working in Australia for past six years...

Your valuable advise is required urgently?


----------



## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Hari556677889 -

You would need to see if the ACS report clearly indicates all of the work you are claiming is skilled. If the ACS report does not positively say this, then you're running a big risk as we've seen situation like this when the ACS report does not specifically certify work as skilled, where the DIBP case officer will apply the current ACS rules to the skills assessment and actually deduct work from being able to be counted as skilled. 

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


----------



## Hari556677889 (Jun 1, 2014)

Hi Mark,

thanks for your reply....here is the copy of my ACS.....

Could you please advise whether I can go ahead based on below information?

Thanks in advance.

Your skills has been assessed to be suitable for migration under 261112 of the ANZSCO code...

Your qualification has been assessed as follows

Your BE degree has been assessed as comparable to AQF bachelor degree with major in computing

Your work experience has been calculated as follows on the basis of full time employment of atleast 20hrs per week....

Dates - 10/06 - 05/08
Employer - XXX
Country - XXX


Dates - 05/08 - 10/10
Employer - XXX
Country - XXX

Dates - 10/10 - 10/12
Employer - XXX
Country - XXX


----------



## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Hari -

Thanks for the note. There are simply too many variables, thousands of pages of regulations, and many ifs/ands/buts involved in a skilled visa application to give anonymous advice via forum based on a typed-in report. The risk is simply too high - if things go wrong, you're out over $3,000 if you had to withdraw your application! If you'd like a complete assessment, happy to do so at a consultation at our office or via Skype or phone where I can look at all of your documents and give you specific advice for your case.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


----------



## johny (Jul 10, 2013)

*Criteria requirements*

On the criteria requirements on the acs site, it listed that with :

ICT major closely related, '2 years relevant work experience completed in the last 10 years or 4 years relevant work experience completed anytime in past work history'

ICT major not closely related, '4 years relevant work experience completed 
anytime in past work history '

Those who have closely related occupations need 2 years or 4 years, why 4 years if it is closely related ?

Confusing thing to write down.


----------



## GBP (Jun 1, 2013)

i think the difference is:

2 years out of the last 10 years 

vs

4 years ANYTIME in the past work history


----------



## guesthero (Jul 8, 2014)

*Claiming Work Experience Points*

Dear Mark,

Can you please clarify me whether I can claim 5 points for my 3 years work experience post qualification B.Tech. Computer Science Engineering for my 189 visa?

Please find below my ACS Result Letter:

Your skills have been assessed to be suitable for migration under 261313 (Software Engineer) of the
ANZSCO Code.
Your qualification has been assessed as follows:
Your Bachelor of Technology from xxx completed June 2009 has been assessed
as comparable to an AQF Bachelor Degree with a major in computing.
The following employment after October 2013 is considered to equate to work at an appropriately
skilled level and relevant to 261313 (Software Engineer) of the ANZSCO Code.
Dates: 04/10 - 02/12 (1yrs 10mths)
Position: Software Engineer
Employer: xxx
Country: INDIA
Dates: 11/12 - 03/14 (1yrs 4mths)
Position: Software Engineer
Employer: xxx
Country: UNITED ARAB EMIRATES

Please reply urgently. Thanks in advance.



MarkNortham said:


> Hi Voodooravi -
> 
> Unless DIAC is ready to give you the points for the years that ACS didn't (unlikely, unfortunately), you'll have to withdraw your application and update your EOI accordingly. I would suggest putting up a STRONG fight with DIAC, politely of course, but stating that the evidence you've provided clearly states that those additional years beyond ACS' view show skilled employment. You need to make a detailed, complete submission and quote the relevant regulations and policy, but I think it's worth the fight. Plus, what is the alternative? They've halted state sponsorship of your occupation. That leaves a strong fight for the 189 and full credit for your work as your primary option.
> 
> ...


----------



## Adam Grey (Nov 8, 2013)

guesthero said:


> Dear Mark,
> 
> Can you please clarify me whether I can claim 5 points for my 3 years work experience post qualification B.Tech. Computer Science Engineering for my 189 visa?
> 
> ...


They're only considering you as 'skilled' from October 2013. Along with the general disgust at how they implemented this change I have a real issue with the way they word these assessments now, it's extremely misleading to have one date and then to list all the employment underneath. If the employment cannot be claimed they should not list it. It's confused so many people and caused a lot of issues. The ACS has a lot to answer for IMO.

I'm not sure how they've come to this conclusion in your case though. They've stated you have the equivalent of an AQF Bachelor Degree with an ICT major, so if the subject was closely related to your occupation you would be deemed 'skilled' on the date you hold that qualification and have had either 2 years relevant experience in the last 10 years or 4 years experience anytime in your history, but in this case the date of Oct 2013 doesn't make any sense as even if you had no experience whatsoever prior to your degree you would meet that definition of 2 years relevant experience on Jan 2013.

I can only assume that they deemed your Degree as having an ICT major but *not* being closely related to the nominated occupation and therefore assessed you as being skilled at the time you hold the qualification and have had at least 4 years relevant experience anytime in your work history.

I'm glad the ACS has made determining people's work experience points so easy!


----------



## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Excellent answer by Adam. Issue is that ACS is taking the the first 2 years work history AFTER you get your degree, hence not deeming you skilled until 2013. 

Have to agree with all Adam's concerns - the skills assessors these days, especially ACS, are totally out of control with seemingly no oversight from DIBP - these organisations are getting rich on the monopoly they enjoy for migration skills assessments, and making and changing rules that are playing havoc with applicants including the confusing employment listing that Adam mentioned that has cost so many people so much money in withdrawn and refused applications when the problem is only discovered after a skilled visa application is lodged. 

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


----------



## Adam Grey (Nov 8, 2013)

MarkNortham said:


> Excellent answer by Adam. Issue is that ACS is taking the the first 2 years work history AFTER you get your degree, hence not deeming you skilled until 2013.


That's what I didn't get though, if they assessed it in that fashion he would've become skilled in Jan 2013 going by the relevant employment experience they've listed. I can only assume they considered his degree as not closely related to the occupation which in turn means they look at 4 years experience anytime in his work history instead.

Jan 2013 or Oct 2013 doesn't make too much difference, but if it did I would consider clarifying with the ACS over how they assessed it.


----------



## AleksiN (Jul 22, 2014)

*Question*

Hi Mark,

I'm a new one on this forum. However, the problem with an old ACS format concerns me as well as many others. I would like to thank you for your good comment and clarifications. Nonetheless, the devil is in the detail 

My case: in september 2013 I received a refusal notification from a CO. I claimed 60 points, including 5 points for community language. To my regret, I misunderstood the requirements for this points group and didn't have supporting evidence (NAATI accreditation). After a meticulous investigation of every case the CO wrote me my result score: 55 pts. Additionally, I had (and, moreover, it is still valid) an ACS assessment of an old format (without any notion of a Skill Level Requirement Met Date). As far as I understood from the refusal notification, the CO was satisfied with that one and rewarded me 10 pts for 5+ years of work experience (exactly what was stated in the assessment result letter).

From that time I've increased my IELTS score and now I'm ready to be invited. I still claim in my EOI 10 pts for my skilled experience. Given the circumstances, I have several questions:
1) was that just my luck that the CO rewarded me 10 points on the basis of the old format ACS assessment?
2) if there were some problems with my skilled experience at this time, wouldit be possible to support my claim with the former refusal notification? What I'm trying to say is that if it was OK in 2013, why it cannot be OK now? 

I would be immensely grateful, if you could comment my case. Thank you in advance.


----------



## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

HI AleksiN -

Not sure about the last application, but a current application with the old skills assessment format is subject to the case officer "applying" the deeming rules to your skills assessment depending on the format of the old letter - ie, overseas degree results in at least 2 years being deducted from your overseas skilled work experience claim. Have seen this done and it's not pretty - ends up with the applicant not being able to justify all points claimed, then having to withdraw the application and losing the visa application fee. Would not say that results from last application some time ago would be a solid defence if the case officer tried to apply the deeming rules to a current application - wish I had better news!

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam



AleksiN said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> I'm a new one on this forum. However, the problem with an old ACS format concerns me as well as many others. I would like to thank you for your good comment and clarifications. Nonetheless, the devil is in the detail
> 
> ...


----------



## AleksiN (Jul 22, 2014)

Hi Mark,

Thanks a lot for your comments. They are very important in my situation.

Would you be so kind to clarify whether or not intending migrants can claim skilled experience if they continue working in a company but an assessment was obtained several months/years earlier without making a new one.

For example,

I received my ACS assessment in Oct 2012. Details:
Company A skilled exp: 01/2007-09/2010 (3 y 8 months)
Company B skilled exp: 10/2010-08/2012 (1 y 10 months)
Overall exp 5y6m

However, I currently work in a Company B. Do I understand right that I can claim professional exp from 09/2012 to 07/2014 what equals to 23 months? 
Theoretically, if I can claim that experience, my overall exp at this time is 7y5m and even if 2 years are deducted, I will be able to get 10 pts mainly because I will be in a from 5 to 8 years range of professional experience.

Is my reasoning correct?


----------



## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi AleksiN -

That often works - if you have remained in the exact same job/position/employer as you were assessed at previously, and the employer writes a letter confirming this, DIBP will usually accept that as evidence of skilled employment through the dates on the letter. You'll still need the other usual stuff from all of your skilled experience including payslips or other evidence of payment for DIBP during visa processing.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam



AleksiN said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> Thanks a lot for your comments. They are very important in my situation.
> 
> ...


----------



## AleksiN (Jul 22, 2014)

Hi Mark,

Thank you very much for the comments. They are extremely helpful.

I really appreciate it.


----------



## AleksiN (Jul 22, 2014)

Dear Mark,

I am still developing my immi action plan and once again I am asking for your help. What do you usually suggest for prospective migrant with old ACS ? Act&rely on their luck or apply for a new one?

Greatly appreciate your help. thanks inadvance


----------



## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

HI AleksiN -

If ACS is expired, it's useless for DIBP. If it's not expired (ie, no expiration date on the report and it's less than 3 years old), then you're good to go. No luck involved (!)

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


----------



## AleksiN (Jul 22, 2014)

Dear Mark,

I've re-read your comments. As far as I understood, the summary is:
1) I'm eligible to use old format ACS assessment ( it expires in Oct 2014)
2) I'm able to claim points for the skilled experience according to my ACS assessment (even it is in old format)
3) however, it is up to a CO whether he/she deducts 2 years based on the old format letter or accepts full experience and rewards relevant amount of points.
4) if 2 years are deducted, theoretically, I can claim skilled experience from Oct 2012 ( date the ACS assessment was issued) until now (approx 10 months) on account of the fact that I still work in a company which is the last one, mentioned in my ACS result letter. This will help me to stay in 5-8 year range of skilled experience.

I hope this logic is right. You feedback would be extremely welcomed.

Many thanks to you.


----------



## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi AlekisN -

The logic makes sense, but cannot give you an opinion on your case without seeing the actual ACS report. Note that in some cases ACS deducts more than 2 years - see "Summary of Criteria" on the ACS site. It can be difficult trying to anticipate how a case officer will "apply" the ACS rules, when the case officer is not qualified as an ACS assessor. With any luck, the case officer will not try and put themselves in the place of ACS and will simply take the ACS letter at face value.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam


----------



## AleksiN (Jul 22, 2014)

Hi Mark,

According to ACS my academic certificate(diploma) was assessed as comparable to Australian Bachelor degree with a major in computing.

Hope to receive an invitation letter on 11 August and continue immi process. Fingers crossed

Thank you for your time and your comments.


----------



## ihasan (Sep 29, 2014)

Dear Mark,
I am working from 2001
Certified MCSE MCSA CCNA A+ 
Graduated(3 years) in Bsc(Hons) in CIT in the year 2006
I have seen in ACS there are 2 options for assessment GA & RPL
But on a forum saw also DIAG will count years for point after my graduation +2 years. So RPL will not effective

I am 38 years old.
Now I see my points are like
Age-25
English-10
Qualification-10
Skill Employment-10
if here all experience are counted it would be 15(how much would be counte from given experience)

so together 55
state nomination can help me her for 60
Is there any clause that i have to have more than 60 for EOI

I did assessment in year 2007 with graduation and all Vendor certificate with experiences was counted 5 years (that time)
Will my last assessment be help full ?
Please advice what should I do..


----------



## ihasan (Sep 29, 2014)

Dear Mark,
I am working from 2001
Certified MCSE MCSA CCNA A+ 
Graduated(3 years) in Bsc(Hons) in CIT in the year 2006
I have seen in ACS there are 2 options for assessment GA & RPL
But on a forum saw also DIAG will count years for point after my graduation +2 years. So RPL will not effective

I am 38 years old.
Now I see my points are like
Age-25
English-10
Qualification-10
Skill Employment-10
if here all experience are counted it would be 15(how much would be counte from given experience)

so together 55
state nomination can help me her for 60
Is there any clause that i have to have more than 60 for EOI

I did assessment in year 2007 with graduation and all Vendor certificate with experiences was counted 5 years (that time)
Will my last assessment be help full ?
Please advice what should I do..


----------



## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Ihasan -

If your skills assessment is from 2007, it has now expired and you'll have to do another one - they are now valid for 3 years unless specified as a shorter period on the skills assessment document.

Re: points, etc it not possible for me to do individual assessments here on the forum as there are simply too many details that are required in order to determine eligibility for a visa, especially a skilled visa.

Applications for Australian visas often have to deal with three different sets of rules and regulations: skills assessment authority regulations, state and territory sponsorship regulations, and visa regulations from the Department of Immigration and Border Protection. As a result, determining which visa(s) an applicant for is a complex question and not able to be answered in a quick back & forth emails or forum posts.

We offer a professional consultation designed to provide the time necessary to work through your situation, answer your questions, and gather enough information about your situation to determine exactly which visa(s) you may qualify for and the steps you would need to do to apply.

If you'd like to book a consultation, we offer this service by phone, Skype and at our office in Parramatta. For more information or to book, visit our website listed in my signature below.

Thanks again for the enquiry -

Best,

Mark Northam



ihasan said:


> Dear Mark,
> I am working from 2001
> Certified MCSE MCSA CCNA A+
> Graduated(3 years) in Bsc(Hons) in CIT in the year 2006
> ...


----------



## sazhar (Nov 19, 2014)

Dear Mark,

Greetings!!

I got my ACS results and they have considered my MCTS (1 Microsoft Exam) as comparable to AQF Diploma. They also considered another Microsoft Certification MCSE (4 exams together) as also AQF Diploma.

I am filing EOI. My problem is that the form is asking me for a start date and end date for MCTS (1 exam) and MCSE (4-exams). Need help in figuring out how to handle the start and end date as these are exams. If I select exam date as start date for MCTS its only one exam so its not allowing me to use same day as end date. Appreciate your valuable input to handle it. For MCSE, as its 4 exams I am thinking of adding first exam date as start date and last one as end date.

Kindly guide me.

Regards,
Azhar


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Azhar -

What you are proposing seems reasonable - I don't know of any specific way they want that entered on the EOI.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam



sazhar said:


> Dear Mark,
> 
> Greetings!!
> 
> ...


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## AleksiN (Jul 22, 2014)

*Assessment Validity Requirements*

Dear Mark,

according to the new validity requirements published on immi.gov.au for the 189 visa subclass an assessment must be valid at the time of invitation.

I would like to clarify it. For example, if an intending migrant is invited and an assessment is valid at the time of invitation and the assessment expires during the lifetime of the invitation (2 months), will the intending migrant is able to apply for the AU visa with valid invitation and expired assessment ?

I thank you in advance for your comments.

Best wishes,
Aleski


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi AleksiN -

A skills assessment must be valid as of the date of invitation - that's the key requirement. If it expires after that date, but before the visa application is made, that is not generally an issue since the legislation specifies that the skills assessment must be valid at the time of invitation.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam



AleksiN said:


> Dear Mark,
> 
> according to the new validity requirements published on immi.gov.au for the 189 visa subclass an assessment must be valid at the time of invitation.
> 
> ...


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## shahgagan85 (Nov 24, 2014)

Hi Mark,

I am a 29 year old guy who wants to settle down in Sydney.

I have appeared for my IELTS exam and secured 7.5 bands overall with 8 in listening, 7 in Reading, 6.5 in Writing (phew) & 7.5 in Speaking ( I know It had to be 7 in all sections). So from Visa point of I dont earn any points here.

But I have nearly 6 years of experience in IT as Backup & Recovery Administrator which falls under the CSOL as Systems Administrator( ANZSCO 262113) however, my qualifications doesn't match my experience. Though,I have done some technical certifications related to my work experience.
Academically, I have done my B.Tech in Electronics Instrumentation and Control. I am not pretty sure, What points will I secure after I get my qualification & Experience Documents Assessed by ACS?

If I take worst case scenario, where in I could score only 5 in Skilled employment part of Points test after getting my assessment result from ACS. 
Can I still make it to subclass 190 or 489 after getting Nomination from state with 5 or 10 points respectively, without having to appear in IELTS again?


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Shahgagan85 -

Thanks for the question - it all depends on how ACS assesses your skills and education - hard to predict specifically how they'll handle your case. Re: other points values, would need to assess your case in detail to give you any specific advice as there are too many details/factors to consider in quick back & forth emails - happy to do so at a consultation - see website in my signature below if you'd like to book.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam



shahgagan85 said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> I am a 29 year old guy who wants to settle down in Sydney.
> 
> ...


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## durontto (Nov 27, 2014)

*A query regarding lodging VISA application for Software Engineer*

To: Mark Northam

Hello,

I am seeking you kind advice for lodging my visa application.

I want to apply for Skilled - Independent (Subclass 189) (Permanent) visa, for the skill Software Engineer (ANZSCO code: 261313). I submitted my EOI claiming 60 points and already got the invitation. Here are the points I claimed:

Age: 30 points 
English language ability: 0 points (I have competent English)
Qualifications: 15 points
Skilled employment: 10 points (for 5+ years overseas experience)
Partner Skill: 5 points

Now the problem is actually, what is mentioned in the letter assessed by ACS. According to their criteria I am qualified for skill after June, 2008 and according to that statement my employment is 4 years (ended in June, 2012) ( they deduct 2 years of my experience).

But, in my EOI I have claimed the whole experience I had( started in June, 2006 and ended in June, 2012: total 5 years).

My question is, if DIAC count the years of experience according to ACS then I actually have 55 points and that means if I lodge my application there is a possibility that they may refuse my application! Since, in my EOI I have claimed the whole years of experience I had. So, I am actually very confused whether I should go ahead to apply for the VISA.

At present I am studying in Australia and I will nearly 1.5 more years to complete my degree. (started in July, 2012)

In this circumstances, please advise me, what to do. My score was in borderline and my experience also. The visa application need to be lodge by January. So please give me your expert opinion what should I do now?

Will DIAC consider the work experience that actually I had or what the ACS assessed?


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Durontto -

Thanks for the note. DIBP will only allow points for work experience allowed as "skilled" by ACS after the deeming date - you must not claim any prior to that date on your EOI as relevant to your occupation or the EOI will calculate points that you are not due. If you lodge a visa application based on a faulty EOI (ie, too many points), it's almost a certainty that it will be refused, or you will be forced to withdraw it.

If you'd like to discuss your case in detail, happy to do so at a consultation - to book please visit our website in my signature.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam



durontto said:


> To: Mark Northam
> 
> Hello,
> 
> ...


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## durontto (Nov 27, 2014)

Dear Mark,

Thank you very much for your quick response. I have full evidence of all my work experience as software engineer. Still, DIBP will take the calculation from ACS? This is very strange. If I lodge my visa using this invitation with the help of any migration then still the case will be same ? So, should I wait for the invitation to be lapsed and find other way to get the required 5 points? or, take help of a migration agent to go ahead with current invitation?


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Durontto -

It might be worth it to have a registered migration agent go over all your paperwork and documents, and give you specific advice on your options, however DIBP will generally not consider any employment for points that is not considered skilled by your skills assessor - DIBP defers to the opinion of the skills assessor in these cases.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam



durontto said:


> Dear Mark,
> 
> Thank you very much for your quick response. I have full evidence of all my work experience as software engineer. Still, DIBP will take the calculation from ACS? This is very strange. If I lodge my visa using this invitation with the help of any migration then still the case will be same ? So, should I wait for the invitation to be lapsed and find other way to get the required 5 points? or, take help of a migration agent to go ahead with current invitation?


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## sam1988 (Dec 5, 2014)

Hi Mark,

I have recently got my ACS assessment

_"
The following employment after November 2012 is considered to equate to work at an appropriately
skilled level and relevant to 261313 (Software Engineer) of the ANZSCO Code.
Dates: 11/10 - 06/14 (3yrs 7mths)
Position: Senior Systems Engineer
"_

Should I mention my "Relevant experience" as 1 year 7 months in EOI under skillselect or 3 years and 7 months.

A general doubt i have is why does ACS considers first 2 years of experience as irrelevant.. even when my education qualification is in the same field (BE in Computer Science)

Greatly appreciate your help. thanks in advance


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi Sam -

You can only claim employment after your deeming date (November 2012) as relevant for points on a skilled visa application. You could break it up into 2 entries - one for 11/10 through 11/12 and mark it as not relevant for your occupation, and another for 12/12 through whatever end date is applicable, and mark it relevant.

I am at a loss to explain ACS's reasons for lopping numbers of years from a person's experience, other than to say that it looks like other skills assessors including VETASSESS are now following ACS's lead in this matter, unfortunately. I believe if your degree is not Australian that is why they will take 2 years even if the degree is closely related to your occupation.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam



sam1988 said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> I have recently got my ACS assessment
> 
> ...


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## Pareet (Aug 23, 2015)

Thanks for the information


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## MazKhanz (Jun 23, 2016)

Hi Mark,

Hope you are doing well. My ACS assessment for 262112-ICT Security Specialist recently expired. I am planning to re-apply to ACS for either 262112 or 263111(Computer Network and Systems Engineer), however I am in a quandary, I was hoping you could advise me.

I have ~17 years of IT experience(Aug 1998 to Present), most of it in Fortune10 companies. In my now expired ACS assessment, my experience from Oct 2001 till date was considered relevant and my experience starting Oct 2007 was considered at skill level required for my profession. I do not have any formal tertiary education however I hold CISSP & CISA vendor certifications which were considered by ACS as equal to AQF Diploma. Now ACS only accepts a minimum of MCSE & CCNP to grant Diploma level. 

IF I were to get MCSE/CCNP certification this month and apply under Skill Assessment, will ACS and/or DIAC accept earlier experience? 

I am confused if I should do 
1. RPL only - I will get only points for experience
2. RPL + MCSE/CCNP - Will I get points of experience + points for Diploma (best bet?)
3. Skills Assessment with MCSE/CCNP - Quicker, less hassle but Worried that they will Count skill attained experience only from date of certification that will leave me with no experience points.

Irrespective of which path I take, should I highlight my earlier ACS assessment? as per that I ACS had granted me from my ~17years, 15years of relevant exp and 8+ yrs of post skill attainment experience.

I would be very grateful if you could take time out to review and guide me.

Best Regards.


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## seopura (Apr 21, 2017)

MarkNortham said:


> Hi Voodooravi -
> 
> Unless DIAC is ready to give you the points for the years that ACS didn't (unlikely, unfortunately), you'll have to withdraw your application and update your EOI accordingly. I would suggest putting up a STRONG fight with DIAC, politely of course, but stating that the evidence you've provided clearly states that those additional years beyond ACS' view show skilled employment. You need to make a detailed, complete submission and quote the relevant regulations and policy, but I think it's worth the fight. Plus, what is the alternative? They've halted state sponsorship of your occupation. That leaves a strong fight for the 189 and full credit for your work as your primary option.
> 
> ...


Hi Mark,

I have seen your many post here and really impressed by the knowledge and expertise you have.

I have a question regarding 189 skill PR visa related to work experience :

I have done 4 year (2006 to 2010) B.Tech in computer science. After that i enrolled in Master for 2 years (2010 to 2012). As part of my Master i have done 1 year (2011 to 2012) full time paid Internship with a MNC.I have all required documents and reference on Company letter head mentioning it was a full time internship.

>>Will my internship counted as work experience ? 
>> Why should i show my masters if that is not helping me in anything?

Really confused Sir, Please suggest.

Thanks


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## seopura (Apr 21, 2017)

I have seen your many post here and really impressed by the knowledge and expertise you have.

I have a question regarding 189 skill PR visa related to work experience :

I have done 4 year (2006 to 2010) B.Tech in computer science. After that i enrolled in Master for 2 years (2010 to 2012). As part of my Master i have done 1 year (2011 to 2012) full time paid Internship with a MNC.I have all required documents and reference on Company letter head mentioning it was a full time internship. 

>>Will my internship counted as work experience ? 
>> Why should i show my masters if that is not helping me in anything? 

Really confused Sir, Please suggest.

Thanks


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi -

Thanks for the note. Whether the internship will count will depend on ACS' assessment of the tasks/duties you performed during that period, no way to predict. Master Degree must be disclosed, however it is of no real benefit points-wise, etc unless the Bachelor degree has issues.

Hope this helps -

Best,

Mark Northam



seopura said:


> I have seen your many post here and really impressed by the knowledge and expertise you have.
> 
> I have a question regarding 189 skill PR visa related to work experience :
> 
> ...


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