# For those of you who still believe you'll get approved in days...



## jmcd16 (Aug 5, 2012)

Too many forum users have unrealistic expectations about the waiting times for partner visas. Yes, a tiny fraction of a percent of applicants get approved in days or weeks, but those cases are included in the AVERAGE processing time quoted below. Please also note that DIAC is no longer giving priority processing to decision-ready applications. I have copied this information from Update: Onshore Partner / Spouse Visa Processing Time - November 2012 | My Access Australia
Please note the date is November 2012, recently a forum user reported that she was quoted an 18 month waiting period. Before you ask, she is from a low risk country.

"Update: Onshore Partner / Spouse Visa Processing Time - November 2012

DIAC sent around the below update on 15 November 2012 in relation to current processing times for onshore partner /spouse visa applications. Applicants who are waiting for a decision on their application probably already know this: the news is that currently processing times are very lengthy. DIAC's update states that 'the current average processing time for subclass 820 applications is around 13 months from lodgement' and before you ask, I don't know how long DIAC is going to take to process your application.

Summary of DIAC's update

Average processing times of 13 months from the date of lodgement for Subclass 820 visa applications
Actual processing times vary significantly
DIAC wants you to lodge complete and decision ready-applications. But DIAC 'can no longer guarantee that all "assessment ready" applications will be processed more quickly'
DIAC will check your application after lodgement to determine whether it is complete and decision-ready
If your application hasn't been in the queue for at least 13 months, DIAC won't provide you with an update. If you've been waiting for more than 13 months, then you can following up by emailing the relevant processing time
DIAC's update

Dear Migration Agents

I have received the following update from DIAC today from the Director of Partner Migration:

'The onshore partner visa program is experiencing strong demand, and as a result, the current average processing time for subclass 820 applications is around 13 months from lodgement. This is an average processing time and the actual processing time for each application may vary significantly.

To ensure that applications are processed as quickly as possible we request that applications are only lodged when they are complete, including health and character checks and completing Form 80.

Generally, applications are considered in date order but some applications will take longer to finalise than others. Applications which will be prioritised include those which have been remitted following successful review or Ministerial Intervention, and applications which have special circumstances of a compelling and compassionate nature.

Applications which may be decided more quickly include those involving family violence, and those which are "assessment ready" at lodgement.

Following a successful campaign to encourage "assessment ready" cases, we now have a considerable number on hand and can no longer guarantee that all "assessment ready" applications will be processed more quickly. The time to decide assessment ready applications will vary due to a number of factors, including the need for further investigation or external checking, the large proportion of applications which are assessment ready and the need to progress other applications in a fair and timely manner.

Applications which are "assessment ready" are automatically identified as such by us when we receive them and so there is no need to contact us separately about this.

We are unable to provide progress reports for applications lodged less than 13 months ago. If your application was lodged more than 13 months ago, the preferred mechanism for seeking an update on the status of that application is to write to the email box of the relevant processing team. Requests for priority processing on the grounds of special circumstances should also be directed to these email mailboxes."


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

It would be really nice if someone would update their website processing times so that people actually know what's going on. But that probably won't happen! Sigh.


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## jmcd16 (Aug 5, 2012)

I just get the impression here that people see the "I got approved in 10 days!" Posts... And then between that and their belief that a decision ready application gets them priority processing... Sets them up for big disappointments. 
I also see a lot of people who think the process is going to be easy... Quotes like, "how hard can it be to prove we love each other".... And people who think that they can't possibly be denied because its so easy and even though they have no evidence and haven't lived together, they've been boyfriend and girlfriend.... 
It's a hard road and a tough reality... But there is too much naïveté out there about it.


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

I saw someone post yesterday that they were sure they would be approved in six months or less because they had great evidence (hi, if you're reading this! Can't remember who it was). I almost posted back, but then decided against it. Almost all of us have really compelling evidence... that doesn't speed up processing time, unfortunately, and to make plans around thinking it will would be setting oneself up for disappointment.


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## jmcd16 (Aug 5, 2012)

I saw one who assured us 4 months or less for the same reasons...That's what spurred me to post this. Also, that poor girl who is trying to do a one year trip overseas with her partner, but because of the processing time extensions on onshore visas, their plans are all messed up. Perhaps if she had known not to trust the posted processing times, she might have applied offshore and saved herself this stress.


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## Nelly87 (Jul 3, 2011)

I went in expecting 15 months or more before I'd hear anything.

Apart from getting frustrated when I see quick grants (come on, everyone waiting must know how it feels to watch others get approved in a few weeks...) I really don't expect much. Part of me knew there was a tiny chance we'd be a quick grant, especially since we had been together longer than some people who have gotten quick grants, but we were never counting on it in any way, shape or form. 

We've had a lot of bad luck (partner injured several times) so we were counting on some more  just to be safe.


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## Tahlia (Jan 9, 2013)

Definitely agree with you Nelly! The past few weeks I have had terrible luck in regards to administration and bureaucracy - so much so that when I saw the DIAC letter my heart sunk and I felt nauseous. I hope you guys finish with a good omen like us! 

I was fully prepared to wait it out for over a year to hear anything about my partner's case and had accepted the consequences (i.e. bridging visas, uncertainty etc). I was reluctant to even hand in a DRA but it just happened that way. While I'm obviously ecstatic he got approved to quickly, on the whole the system is incredibly frustrating and chaotic. No idea why our case got accepted in a month when there are others with strong cases still waiting. 

I think you have to be super realistic (to the point of almost being pessimistic!) about waiting times and explore all the options and possible outcomes before you apply. You could be one of the lucky ones but the odds aren't in your favour.


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## Romulus (Jan 19, 2013)

CollegeGirl said:


> I saw someone post yesterday that they were sure they would be approved in six months or less because they had great evidence (hi, if you're reading this! Can't remember who it was). I almost posted back, but then decided against it. Almost all of us have really compelling evidence... that doesn't speed up processing time, unfortunately, and to make plans around thinking it will would be setting oneself up for disappointment.


That was possibly me, I'm confident my fiance's PMV will be approved within 6 months. Happy to be proven wrong though. I base my confidence on those that have submitted decision ready PMV's, submitted more than adequate evidence and who's cases are simple. Plus, my fiance is here in Perth on a Tourist Visa, without condition 8503 and she'll be staying here until DIAC instruct her to go back home for the decision. We'll apply for extensions on her TV until the decision is ready to be made.

There's plenty of cases to prove those that applied for PMV's from *Philippines *who have met the criteria required by DIAC get their Visa's approved within 6 months. PMV/820 Visa applications from Philippines do get processed quicker than those from 'low risk' countries.

However, I do agree with the OP's posts. Yesterday I read someone posting if they should apply for a PMV or 820 for their partner from the Philippines. They met on a online dating site, never met in person, expect to apply for a PMV/820 and believe DIAC will accept their relationship as genuine. As mentioned, there are plenty of people setting themselves up for a fall. One thing that concerns me is when sponsors say "I cant afford to visit my partner overseas" yet you need to convince DIAC you have the financial capacity to support your partner for 12 months in Australia.....how does one explain that? DIAC aren't silly 

Reality is not all visa's are granted, DIAC have their reasons why and you find out when a visa is disallowed.


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## Nelly87 (Jul 3, 2011)

Tahlia said:


> Definitely agree with you Nelly! The past few weeks I have had terrible luck in regards to administration and bureaucracy - so much so that when I saw the DIAC letter my heart sunk and I felt nauseous. I hope you guys finish with a good omen like us!
> 
> *I was fully prepared to wait it out for over a year to hear anything about my partner's case and had accepted the consequences (i.e. bridging visas, uncertainty etc).* I was reluctant to even hand in a DRA but it just happened that way. While I'm obviously ecstatic he got approved to quickly, on the whole the system is incredibly frustrating and chaotic. No idea why our case got accepted in a month when there are others with strong cases still waiting.
> 
> I think you have to be super realistic (to the point of almost being pessimistic!) about waiting times and explore all the options and possible outcomes before you apply. You could be one of the lucky ones but the odds aren't in your favour.


Thank you 

And yes, it's a matter of accepting consequences. I don't see why the last few miles of that would be a bigger deal - it was hard for him to leave his family behind to be with me in The Netherlands for a year, unemployed (they weren't very keen on hiring people who don't speak Dutch, crisis and all) - it was hard for me to leave my cat behind and sell everything I owned, it's hard for me to miss my family and it was hard to start over, I don't really see why now suddenly at the end while awaiting the verdict I should be worried about not being able to make travel plans. Really that stuff seems trivial to me compared to the whole process start to finish. So we won't travel for a couple of years, so I won't go see my family unless there is a special or serious event, so be it.

We all pay prices for being in an international relationship, more than the application fee - much more. So I personally don't really mind having to wait even two years. That's just how it is - we knew that before we applied, and it's worth it if we get to be together eventually.

But everyone's individual situation is different I suppose!


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## MarcusAurelius (Feb 23, 2012)

CollegeGirl said:


> It would be really nice if someone would update their website processing times so that people actually know what's going on. But that probably won't happen! Sigh.


You mean like this?

Processing Times and Priorities for the Onshore Partner Program - Visas & Immigration


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## Valentine1981 (Sep 13, 2012)

so does this mean that we need to get our medicals done before lodging now???? when did that come into effect,I've been advised to wait until asked. At this rate by the time they look at our application we will be married anyway!


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

MarcusAurelius said:


> You mean like this?
> 
> Processing Times and Priorities for the Onshore Partner Program - Visas & Immigration


No, I'm talking specifically about this page:

Client Service Charter

They say on "What's New" that onshore average is now 13 months... but they still haven't updated the processing time on the page I listed. Makes no sense.


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## iduno (Jan 24, 2013)

Romulus said:


> That was possibly me, I'm confident my fiance's PMV will be approved within 6 months. Happy to be proven wrong though. I base my confidence on those that have submitted decision ready PMV's, submitted more than adequate evidence and who's cases are simple. Plus, my fiance is here in Perth on a Tourist Visa, without condition 8503 and she'll be staying here until DIAC instruct her to go back home for the decision. We'll apply for extensions on her TV until the decision is ready to be made.
> 
> There's plenty of cases to prove those that applied for PMV's from *Philippines *who have met the criteria required by DIAC get their Visa's approved within 6 months. PMV/820 Visa applications from Philippines do get processed quicker than those from 'low risk' countries.
> 
> ...


Romulus,
I hope your fiancee hasn't applied for an 820 visa in Manila , should be a 300


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

EDIT: Wait, you're applying onshore, I forgot.

Valentine, if you are applying ONSHORE it does look like that's what they're asking for. You may want to verify that.


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## Romulus (Jan 19, 2013)

iduno said:


> Romulus,
> I hope your fiancee hasn't applied for an 820 visa in Manila , should be a 300


She applied for an offshore PMV300 in Cebu, two weeks later a Tourist Visa.

She's now in Perth with me while we wait for the PMV decision.


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## louiseb (Dec 22, 2012)

CollegeGirl said:


> It would be really nice if someone would update their website processing times so that people actually know what's going on. But that probably won't happen! Sigh.


I actually sent an email to the Australian immigration web site manager and told him to update his times as what he is advertising and the actual time is way out, i dont think for one minute he did it but i tried lol.


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## louiseb (Dec 22, 2012)

Romulus said:


> She applied for an offshore PMV300 in Cebu, two weeks later a Tourist Visa.
> 
> She's now in Perth with me while we wait for the PMV decision.


Sorry she applied for a PMV off shore then applied 2 weeks later for a tourist visa and now your living together in Perth, if it was this easy why hasnt any one else done this! This is Amazing, good luck to you both good to see that some one got a visa, i wish you well.


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## Romulus (Jan 19, 2013)

louiseb said:


> Sorry she applied for a PMV off shore then applied 2 weeks later for a tourist visa and now your living together in Perth, if it was this easy why hasnt any one else done this! This is Amazing, good luck to you both good to see that some one got a visa, i wish you well.


Correct.

PMV Visa lodged 16 March 2013, received in Manila 19 March 2013.

Tourist Visa applied for 1 April 2013, received by mail 19 April 2013 in her hometown in Leyte. I booked her flight that afternoon, from Cebu to Perth, my fiance arrived in Perth 23 April 2013.

No condition 8503 - No Further Stay on her tourist visa. The TV has been granted for 3 months, we will apply for an extension to her visa in 2 months time. The medical for my fiance is booked for this coming Friday in Perth....we will use this medical as part of the application for the TV extension.

Yes, perhaps luck is on our side. My fiance's previous TV August last year didnt have 8503 on it either. Our belief is that full and open disclosure to DIAC, stating our intent with her tourist visa has made our application so straight forward in our opinion.

To be honest, some of her friends are austounded at the speed at which we've filed the PMV and TV, and that she's here already. My opinion is time waits for no one, we want to be together so we've made it happen.

Thank you for your well-wishes, I wish everyone the same speed we've experienced


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## Nelly87 (Jul 3, 2011)

Romulus you mentioned that partner visas for the Philippines go faster than most countries, do you have any idea why this is? I'm just curious - it has no relation to our situation but I always try and make sense of what so far has seemed like a random system.


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## Romulus (Jan 19, 2013)

Nelly87 said:


> Romulus you mentioned that partner visas for the Philippines go faster than most countries, do you have any idea why this is? I'm just curious - it has no relation to our situation but I always try and make sense of what so far has seemed like a random system.


Demand I guess, it appears DIAC deal with a lot of applications from the Philippines so they're better geared to cope with it than countries with fewer applicants.


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## ProblemChild (Mar 12, 2013)

CollegeGirl said:


> No, I'm talking specifically about this page:
> 
> Client Service Charter
> 
> They say on "What's New" that onshore average is now 13 months... but they still haven't updated the processing time on the page I listed. Makes no sense.


That's interesting. I applied for 820 in Queensland a couple of weeks ago and received an automatic reply from the processing centre stating that the current average processing time is 9 months. Soon after that, I received a phone call from the manager of the processing centre informing me that the processing time had been significantly reduced recently and my application would be processed very soon. The impression I got from the manager of the partner visa processing centre is that the processing time will be a couple of weeks (which is consistent with a number of posts I found in this forum announcing the grant of a visa in some weeks rather than months).


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## jmcd16 (Aug 5, 2012)

MarcusAurelius said:


> You mean like this?
> 
> Processing Times and Priorities for the Onshore Partner Program - Visas & Immigration


No, not quite like that... Because all the links point you to the client service processing charter, where they have not bothered to warn you about that. Additionally, I believe that the 13 months quoted there has extended to 18 now.

Some of us have been able to find that info... But it was not readily available... And not everyone is terribly Internet savvy.

Having said that about the Internet savvy, I do get a little frustrated with people who post up here with super basic questions that would have been answered had they even ever LOOKED at the DIAC web site.


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## louiseb (Dec 22, 2012)

MarcusAurelius said:


> You mean like this?
> 
> Processing Times and Priorities for the Onshore Partner Program - Visas & Immigration


thank you for this link interesting, they want the MEDICALS BEFORE WE SUBMIT the application see below

Processing Times and Priorities for the Onshore Partner Program

The onshore Partner visa program is experiencing strong demand, and as a result, the current average processing time for subclass 820 applications is around 13 months from lodgement. This is an average processing time and the actual processing time for each application may vary significantly.

*To ensure that your application is processed as quickly as possible only lodge your application when it is complete. Please undertake health and character checks before you lodge your application and supply the department with a completed 'Form 80'.*

Generally, applications are considered in date order but some applications will take longer to finalise than others. Applications which will be prioritised include those which have been remitted following successful review or Ministerial Intervention, and applications which have special circumstances of a compelling or compassionate nature.

Applications which may be decided more quickly include those involving family violence, and those which are 'assessment ready' at lodgement. The time to decide assessment ready applications will vary due to a number of factors, including the need for further investigation or external checking, the large proportion of applications which are assessment ready and the need to progress other applications in a fair and timely manner.

Applications which are 'assessment ready' are automatically identified as such by the department when we receive them. There is no need to contact us separately about this.

We are unable to provide progress reports for applications lodged less than 13 months ago. If your application was lodged more than 13 months ago, the preferred mechanism for seeking an update on the status of that application is to email the relevant processing team as advised in the letter acknowledging your application. Requests for priority processing on the grounds of special circumstances should also emailed to the relevant processing team.

sorry im writing in red but i thought that this was for ONSHORE applications so why do they need the FORM 80 has something changed


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## jmcd16 (Aug 5, 2012)

My concern with the fact that they are simultaneously encouraging decision-ready applications and giving a 13 month average processing time is that your medical and character clearances are only valid for 1 year. If it takes 13 months or longer to process, then you are stuck with another 500.00 bill to pay. Of course, NOT including them up front means you lose out on the small opportunity to get pushed through in a couple weeks... Tough decision to make.


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

louiseb said:


> thank you for this link interesting, they want the MEDICALS BEFORE WE SUBMIT the application see below
> 
> Processing Times and Priorities for the Onshore Partner Program
> 
> ...


I've been saying for a while now that all signs point to them requiring Form 80 from everyone... or working up to that.


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## Valentine1981 (Sep 13, 2012)

Wish they would stop moving the goalposts. Makes the whole process so much harder!! And stressful


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## Tahlia (Jan 9, 2013)

jmcd16 said:


> My concern with the fact that they are simultaneously encouraging decision-ready applications and giving a 13 month average processing time is that your medical and character clearances are only valid for 1 year. If it takes 13 months or longer to process, then you are stuck with another 500.00 bill to pay. Of course, NOT including them up front means you lose out on the small opportunity to get pushed through in a couple weeks... Tough decision to make.


This was a big decision for my partner and I. Especially given that a migration lawyer told us to wait to be asked to submit medicals and police checks for that reason, but a DIAC rep explicitly told me that if a DRA was submitted, there would be "no limit to the validity" of those docs. I was so surprised I made her repeat it back to me a few times and I got her name and a receipt number for that call. 
I wouldn't recommend either option as a definite for anyone. It all depends on personal circumstances - if you can afford extra costs, are happy to wait to be asked, etc.


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## Coral2013 (Jan 9, 2013)

I know it's controversial, but I think there's some prioritising - even within low risk countries - as to who is getting approved the quickest.

Whatever goes through their minds at immi is anyone's guess, but myself and also my partners sister's partner both got approved sub 2 weeks. Another friend of mine who I helped apply for her visa was approved in one week last month. We are all British.


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## Valentine1981 (Sep 13, 2012)

Coral2013 said:


> I know it's controversial, but I think there's some prioritising - even within low risk countries - as to who is getting approved the quickest.
> 
> Whatever goes through their minds at immi is anyone's guess, but myself and also my partners sister's partner both got approved sub 2 weeks. Another friend of mine who I helped apply for her visa was approved in one week last month. We are all British.


Funny how hard they make it for Brits to get in considering Australia was settled by the criminals England didn't want ;-p then they paid them £10 to emigrate...now I'm being driven round the bend trying to prove to some faceless immigration person that my relationship is genuine!!


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## iduno (Jan 24, 2013)

Valentine1981 said:


> Funny how hard they make it for Brits to get in considering Australia was settled by the criminals England didn't want ;-p then they paid them £10 to emigrate...now I'm being driven round the bend trying to prove to some faceless immigration person that my relationship is genuine!!


Stop beating us at cricket and we may make it easier for you..haha


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## Valentine1981 (Sep 13, 2012)

iduno said:


> Stop beating us at cricket and we may make it easier for you..haha


Ok...I'll find a way to render the English cricket team useless in exchange for residency!!


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

iduno said:


> Stop beating us at cricket and we may make it easier for you..haha


If that's all it takes, I'm a shoo-in. We Americans only vaguely know cricket as that game Aussies and Brits play. Haha.


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## iduno (Jan 24, 2013)

Valentine1981 said:


> Ok...I'll find a way to render the English cricket team useless in exchange for residency!!


I wish I could help, but the only reply's I get are from Ethel Computer, tried to get Ethel to pass on my questions to a human, no luck though.
But please go ahead render the English cricket team useless.


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## iduno (Jan 24, 2013)

CollegeGirl said:


> If that's all it takes, I'm a shoo-in. We Americans only vaguely know cricket as that game Aussies and Brits play. Haha.


You will either love the game, hate it or wont understand it at all


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

iduno said:


> You will either love the game, hate it or wont understand it at all


Cricket sounds suspiciously like those _sports_ things I never watch here, either.


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## iduno (Jan 24, 2013)

CollegeGirl said:


> Cricket sounds suspiciously like those _sports_ things I never watch here, either.


I'm not sure what is more important to me right now, Australia to beat the English at cricket or my wife to get her visa


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## Valentine1981 (Sep 13, 2012)

iduno said:


> I'm not sure what is more important to me right now, Australia to beat the English at cricket or my wife to get her visa


I'd say the most important thing now is making sure your wife doesn't see that comment!


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## iduno (Jan 24, 2013)

Valentine1981 said:


> I'd say the most important thing now is making sure your wife doesn't see that comment!


Its OK, I'll tell her what I said before someone else does


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## iduno (Jan 24, 2013)

iduno said:


> Its OK, I'll tell her what I said before someone else does


What I should say is my wife is much more important than a game of cricket


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## Nelly87 (Jul 3, 2011)

jmcd16 said:


> My concern with the fact that they are simultaneously encouraging decision-ready applications and giving a 13 month average processing time is that your medical and character clearances are only valid for 1 year. If it takes 13 months or longer to process, then you are stuck with another 500.00 bill to pay. Of course, NOT including them up front means you lose out on the small opportunity to get pushed through in a couple weeks... Tough decision to make.


Yes, that is concerning in my opinion, too. If you're going to up the waiting time to such extreme times, you have to consider the fact that you're also encouraging people to submit expensive documents that run out long before you will probably make your decision.

Of course another medical would be worth the price, that is not the issue, but the thing is it does seem wrong - they should extend the validity of the results, change their requests about the documents OR... but that would be "controversial" maybe - they could of course use the medicals they got and only ask for new ones if they were going to approve the application.

So basically if you've been waiting for OVER 13 months and your results have expired, but they have reviewed your case as a whole, they would only as you for new medicals if they are planning on approving you - just popped into my head. So not request new medicals until they have made a decision on all the other evidence.


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## Nelly87 (Jul 3, 2011)

Coral2013 said:


> I know it's controversial, but I think there's some prioritising - even within low risk countries - as to who is getting approved the quickest.
> 
> Whatever goes through their minds at immi is anyone's guess, but myself and also my partners sister's partner both got approved sub 2 weeks. Another friend of mine who I helped apply for her visa was approved in one week last month. We are all British.


I would have to agree with the idea that somewhere there is obviously prioritizing taking place - I just can't seem to find a logic or pattern. Maybe there's a good reason for it that actually HELPS them with time efficiency but it would be nice to know what it is.

Overall I've noticed many of the fast grants are British, at the same time I've also read about British applicants waiting the average waiting time or longer. I don't know why that is - but I do have a feeling that generally, British applications have a better chance at going fast than other ones.


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## Suze Rush (Apr 6, 2013)

Ok...after reading these recent posts, I have a few questions and theories and actual facts. First I am applying for a purposed marriage visa 300 offshore. Does that have any changing factors from the onshore or 820's? DIAC and research I did along with my fiance' states it takes 5 to 12 months. My fiance' actually called DIAC in Oz and I have called here and we have asked similar but varied questions. It doesn't matter your situation, your proof, your low risk or high risk, taking a whole family or by yourself, it is merely where you are in the stack. And considering I have had a small glitch in mine which will probably put a few months more on a "usual" processing time, I have not only moved from the "US's" pile but to the International pile. Hearing of someone Else's quicker responses is bittersweet. Wishing it were you but happy for them at the same time because you know what they have been going through....but there are no guarantees so you cannot base your experience on anyone Else's. Do your research, ask questions and don't predict nor expect anything. I just hope that I hear about mine before I take off June 5th...if not I will take these things as they come. I hope to support and gain support from this forum not try and get assumptions from someone Else's situation.


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## kttykat (Oct 30, 2012)

Simply you just can't count on DIAC granting your visa at any time. We were lucky that they took our circumstances into account but most visas are minimum 4 months and maximum 2 years from what I have seen, the visas that are granted in weeks are the exception not the rule. I know our application was complete and thorough and we were married but it still took over 5 months before they really even looked at it. After that it was a few days to actually grant it!

Kttykat


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## MarcusAurelius (Feb 23, 2012)

I'm at >14 months (on-shore, Sydney) and still no news.

Playing the waiting game.


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## Whitney (Jan 4, 2013)

When I applied January this year my application acceptance letter said 13 months is the current average processing time for 820/801 visa and I've heard many stories of them taking even longer. Taking this long to process a visa almost negates the point of granting 2 year temporary status because that time is nearly up any way by the time it comes through.

It really makes me wonder where the bottle neck is in the Asutralian immigration system. I feel like it would take me maximum two 8 hour work days to process my own application. I've got a straight forward case with lots of supporting evidence, a long history, and no complications like red flags on medicals or police checks. So what are they doing with my application for 13 months? Which section of a clear cut application takes the most time to process and verify? What sections are deemed most important? How many different people will look at and judge the information we provided? Surely there's a way to streamline this process that will have a positive affect on migration! I hope the four grand I gave them is a reflection on how much work they're putting into approving my application. I'd hate to think it's being spent on renovating immigration offices or funding staff beer pong tournaments or something...

How long do you think it would take YOU to process YOUR application (if you were not yourself but an impartial immigration officer, of course)?


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## bma (Sep 28, 2011)

MarcusAurelius said:


> I'm at >14 months (on-shore, Sydney) and still no news.
> 
> Playing the waiting game.


Keep us posted, please. We've been waiting for >12 months in Sydney.
Good luck!


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## robboat (Jun 12, 2012)

Australia is a very attractive country for immigration....

The reality is that there are many, many thousands of applications from all over the world.

All those applications have to be accepted, checked, verified and rechecked if something is missing. 
All the thousands of people who take short cuts and do not give enough evidence are slowing the system down
Lots of time, lots of paper, lots of organisation....think about it.

If DIAC had a small army of people to process these then the delays would reduce.

There is just not enough money in the budget to allow that....unless they increase fees again.

So - make sure you submit a complete and through application, rechecked in every detail.

The CO at DIAC knows nothing about you 
Only what you present in your application......
You have to prove beyond doubt every requirement on the check list.

Hope this helps.


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## queliwantstogo (Apr 29, 2013)

I imagine that this has already been answered somewhere in the bowels of Aus Forum, but I couldn't find it in a quick search and must be off to work in a few.

What exactly constitutes a "decision ready" application? Does that just mean that everything on the normal checklist has been supplied?


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## jmcd16 (Aug 5, 2012)

Whitney said:


> When I applied January this year my application acceptance letter said 13 months is the current average processing time for 820/801 visa and I've heard many stories of them taking even longer. Taking this long to process a visa almost negates the point of granting 2 year temporary status because that time is nearly up any way by the time it comes through.
> 
> It really makes me wonder where the bottle neck is in the Asutralian immigration system. I feel like it would take me maximum two 8 hour work days to process my own application. I've got a straight forward case with lots of supporting evidence, a long history, and no complications like red flags on medicals or police checks. So what are they doing with my application for 13 months? Which section of a clear cut application takes the most time to process and verify? What sections are deemed most important? How many different people will look at and judge the information we provided? Surely there's a way to streamline this process that will have a positive affect on migration! I hope the four grand I gave them is a reflection on how much work they're putting into approving my application. I'd hate to think it's being spent on renovating immigration offices or funding staff beer pong tournaments or something...
> 
> How long do you think it would take YOU to process YOUR application (if you were not yourself but an impartial immigration officer, of course)?


Well, let me cheekily break it down: [disclaimer... While I have every confidence that this is not how it actually goes, I also know we all have these thoughts on bad days]


1 hour for coffee machine chatting
2 hours to meander through email inbox
1 hour for next coffee break
lunch time
1 hour for inbox
30 min to take call from home. Need to pick up milk on the way home
2 hours- I just realized I haven't even opened FAcebook today!
oh, shoot, happy hour starts in 20 minutes. Gotta go... Application? What application?


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## iduno (Jan 24, 2013)

jmcd16 said:


> Well, let me cheekily break it down: [disclaimer... While I have every confidence that this is not how it actually goes, I also know we all have these thoughts on bad days]
> 
> 
> 1 hour for coffee machine chatting
> ...


Very good, that puts it in a nut shell, but you forgot the 30 seconds to press the auto reply's to all the emails, because don't have time to answer to reply.


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## kttykat (Oct 30, 2012)

jmcd16 said:


> Well, let me cheekily break it down: [disclaimer... While I have every confidence that this is not how it actually goes, I also know we all have these thoughts on bad days]
> 
> 
> 1 hour for coffee machine chatting
> ...


You forgot 2 extra years for your application if they read your post and notice your photo is the same as one they have in their pile.... 

Kttykat


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## jmcd16 (Aug 5, 2012)

I have to say, it has occurred to me to worry about that


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

kttykat said:


> You forgot 2 extra years for your application if they read your post and notice your photo is the same as one they have in their pile....
> 
> Kttykat


I have to say - I laughed out loud!


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## MarcusAurelius (Feb 23, 2012)

bma said:


> Keep us posted, please. We've been waiting for >12 months in Sydney.
> Good luck!


Hi bma, I'll keep you posted. No news as yet.


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

LOL I have to say it also occurred to me but that is just Paranoia, I am not really an aussie man, I am a brazilin woman living in Canada for the record DIAC haha


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## iduno (Jan 24, 2013)

Aussieboy07 said:


> LOL I have to say it also occurred to me but that is just Paranoia, I am not really an aussie man, I am a brazilin woman living in Canada for the record DIAC haha


aussieboy you could really confuse them by saying that you are a north korean lady boy


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

Sorry but they are just man boobs ha


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## iduno (Jan 24, 2013)

Aussieboy07 said:


> Sorry but they are just man boobs ha


What we do if it wasn't for being able to have a few jokes and laughs on the forum


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## Kaushik (May 10, 2013)

any idea about the average processing time for 457 dependent visa. Its already been 3 weeks since I applied a visa for my wife, medicals updated 10days back. Still no update. Thank you.


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

Go to the top and middle of the page and you will see timelines Do a search by india and you will get the answer you seek. Then take it with a grain of salt (aussie slang for do not believe it) everyone is different. My advise take up a hobby. Mine is watching the grass grow as it happens quicker than the processing of my visa


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## Kaushik (May 10, 2013)

am in australia from 5yrs now. I will search in the timeline n c if i can find something there. thnks mate.


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## iduno (Jan 24, 2013)

Aussieboy07 said:


> Go to the top and middle of the page and you will see timelines Do a search by india and you will get the answer you seek. Then take it with a grain of salt (aussie slang for do not believe it) everyone is different. My advise take up a hobby. Mine is watching the grass grow as it happens quicker than the processing of my visa


oh shit the embassy is closed and no visa...I'm going for a beer or two


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

Well stay away from those north Korean ladyboys (by the way safe choice of country to make fun off)
Though back to the original intent of the thread, getting a visa takes time and there is no way to fast track it. The embassy operates independently and your visas will be processed in due time. You can not judge when your visa will be approved/disapproved and you just need to live your life to the fullest under the circumstances. Do not make decisions or plans based on the approval of a visa or you *will* be disappointed


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## followthesun (May 11, 2013)

ProblemChild said:


> That's interesting. I applied for 820 in Queensland a couple of weeks ago and received an automatic reply from the processing centre stating that the current average processing time is 9 months. Soon after that, I received a phone call from the manager of the processing centre informing me that the processing time had been significantly reduced recently and my application would be processed very soon. The impression I got from the manager of the partner visa processing centre is that the processing time will be a couple of weeks (which is consistent with a number of posts I found in this forum announcing the grant of a visa in some weeks rather than months).


Interesting info, this is actually in line with my experience.

I had been quoted 12-14 months as the current processing times when I lodged my onshore application recently.

Now I do realise I'm most likely the exception here, but my application ended up being approved in just a week. I also received my PR (subclass 801) straight away.

I am so happy and I feel incredibly blessed. Having that said, each case is clearly different, making it quite hard to compare time lines.

I have spent nearly a decade living and working in Australia with my husband, and I have been collecting evidence towards this visa for many, many years. It has been a long and thorough process, and at the end of it I don't believe there was much else I could've possibly provided in terms of evidence.

I fully understand the agony some of you must be going through though. Trust me, I do. (A few years back I was on a BVA for 18 months between two visas, so I am highly familiar with the stress and uncertainty involved.) I am just so happy that our efforts through the years finally paid off, and that we can now put this behind us.

Best of luck to all of you.


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

CONGRATULATIONS, yes you are the exception but thankyou for pointing that out . I would be shocked if a 10 year relationship was refused. I wish you well and hope that you and your partner take the time to make a special event of your success


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## bma (Sep 28, 2011)

MarcusAurelius said:


> Hi bma, I'll keep you posted. No news as yet.


Hey MarcusAurelius, as a fellow 2012 Sydney applicant I'd like to let you know that our 820 has just been granted. We had been waiting for 13 months. Have you been granted your visa yet?
All the best!


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

CONGRATS bma! Well deserved.


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## Nelly87 (Jul 3, 2011)

Quick back to "those of you who still think you'll get approved in days"...

I had a moment of weakness and decided to look up how everyone else who's applied for an 820 in 2013 has been doing - we applied onshore de facto in January 2013.










It does start to feel like we're falling behind... should I start packing?


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## bma (Sep 28, 2011)

Nelly87 said:


> Quick back to "those of you who still think you'll get approved in days"...
> 
> I had a moment of weakness and decided to look up how everyone else who's applied for an 820 in 2013 has been doing - we applied onshore de facto in January 2013.
> 
> ...


You mean packing because you're afraid your visa might not be granted??

 You're stressing too much, I remember seeing your posts regularly and you've sent in a good application.

Seeing all these "approved" posts here on forum does make you wonder "what if"; the more time passes by, the more in doubts one is...

Luckily, I was following this forum all the time and I've noticed there were/are many fellow applicants who have also been waiting onshore for a year or more, and knowing that made us stay put and patient...  ... Although, my hubby (he was the applicant) was getting worried (despite all the evidence); it's normal to get worried and stressed... What if a case officer had a quarrel with her/his partner that exact day when it's your turn and decides to get some revenge?!?! 

I still can't believe I've dedicated almost two years of my life to this "project" and the forum, with the visa now being granted, it feels like we're getting our life back. 



Be patient and don't worry... unless you've realised there's a vital document missing, then it might be good to send it in. But otherwise, just be patient, cause you did your best and you're nothing but a number to them anyway...

All the best!


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## Nelly87 (Jul 3, 2011)

bma said:


> You mean packing because you're afraid your visa might not be granted??
> 
> You're stressing too much, I remember seeing your posts regularly and you've sent in a good application.
> 
> ...


Thank you  the only thing I'm really worried about is two areas - in the Netherlands there's no such thing as a "statutory declaration" like in Australia - if you sign it, it's official, period. So I'm afraid they won't regard our Dutch family and friends' declarations as valid - in that case I'd hope they'd give us a chance to ask them again and get notaries involved.

The other "issue" is the biggest one, which is that my Aussie partner has been unemployed for quite some time - but I have been employed, am doing very well (with a stat dec from my supervisor as well) and my partner's mother has a house and a very good income and has written a statement noting she is happy to sign an Assurance of Support and post any bail necessary.

My fear is that they won't even ask us for those things (better Dutch stat decs or the Assurance of Support) and just go ahead and turn us straight down... because everything is so behind closed doors I never know what to expect.

Just have to remind myself there is no point in worrying! It is just very hard to make plans and build a life together not knowing if it'll have to be broken back down the next day. I didn't expect a quick grant... I am moreso afraid of the rejection, early or late!


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## nicsi (Mar 19, 2012)

We applied for our PMV off shore, it was approved in 5 months. I also came over on a visitor visa while the decision was being made on my PMV. You just have to leave the country when they are ready to grant your visa. (if applying off shore)
We then applied for our 820 partner visa 24th December 2012, and we were lucky enough to have that granted on May 3rd 2013. (again 5 months)
After applying for your PMV keep all the evidence of your relationship, as you have to do the same application but more when applying for your partner visa. (we were not aware of this, and was shocked as we applied for the partner visa only 7 months after the PMV.)
We submitted our application into Sydney, and was told the wait was 13 months, but would probably be longer. The person on the phone at DIAC said the demand for partner visa's was huge making the back log huge too. She also said that submitting in Melbourne would have been quicker? (I don't know if this is true, I had already submitted)
I was asked for no further evidence, so I guess that means our partner application must have been decision ready. We didn't even get advised of a case officer being allocated, which we had with the PMV.
Also wanted to add. If you do decide to travel across on a visitor visa, and have children, in NSW you have to pay $237.50 a WEEK for each child to attend school until your PMV or partner visa is Granted. (well we did anyway, we're British)
I wish everyone good luck.


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## Laegil (Sep 17, 2012)

Nelly87 said:


> Quick back to "those of you who still think you'll get approved in days"...
> 
> I had a moment of weakness and decided to look up how everyone else who's applied for an 820 in 2013 has been doing - we applied onshore de facto in January 2013.
> 
> ...


I know how you feel. I am getting so sick and tired of all the quick grants recently while I am waiting my butt off. And there seems to be no reason for them to be granted quicker than others. I'm not afraid of it getting refused though, I'm just annoyed by my life being on hold.


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## sunnysmile (Oct 13, 2011)

I am in 12th month of waiting for my offshore partner visa - I know how you feel.


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

I know the feeling, I just finished waiting 9 months and know that my visa will not be finalized until July
I am no longer worried about whether it will be approved, but I also feel like I am floating in limbo/life on hold. A year is a long time to be apart but we do it this way due to our work commitments She can not resign in case the visa is declined and I have used the majority of my leave visiting her. Oh well such is life


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## jmcd16 (Aug 5, 2012)

This whole process is heartbreaking. Sometimes I wonder... if I'd have known it was going to be this hard, would I have run screaming from the Thai restaurant on our first date?  

Definitely not. But it's an amusing picture. The fact is, he is worth fighting for. What we have is worth suffering for. Our future is worth waiting for.


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

Our first date was a Thai restaurant, too! LOL! Followed by my college's version of prom, so I was super dressed up. Trying not to get thai food on a white dress is CHALLENGING. (PS - When I picked a white dress, in the back of my mind I thought, hmmmm... I wonder if this will make him think 'Wow, she looks good in white' and want to propose to me!' LOL. It took a few years, but it apparently worked! )


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

(And yes, I knew even before our first date that I really saw marriage potential with this guy...we'd been talking online/on the phone for quite some time by then, and sometimes you just KNOW. Of course, you can't be sure until you meet in person, but that cemented it!)


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

CG
You know what I find funny is it is fine for westerners to meet online or internet dating sites, though if a westerner meets an Asian girl online suddenly she is a mail order bride. I have heard people say this and even seen it said here on this site, kinda sad really. Just for the record I met my fiancée in person as she was a cousin of my friend. I really don't care how people meet as this is their business and if they are happy that is all that should matter. I will get off my soap box now as I am probably preaching to the converted anyway )


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## Laegil (Sep 17, 2012)

Well I knew it was gonna be this hard, and I thought I was prepared, but sometimes all the frustration just boils over and I have to have a little whiny moment. I think we should all get a "certificate of endured hardship" or something when it's over


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## Nelly87 (Jul 3, 2011)

Aussieboy07 said:


> CG
> You know what I find funny is it is fine for westerners to meet online or internet dating sites, though if a westerner meets an Asian girl online suddenly she is a mail order bride. I have heard people say this and even seen it said here on this site, kinda sad really. Just for the record I met my fiancée in person as she was a cousin of my friend. I really don't care how people meet as this is their business and if they are happy that is all that should matter. I will get off my soap box now as I am probably preaching to the converted anyway )


I have to tell you, you are right as rain - but I sometimes catch my mind flirting with this prejudice. I'm not proud of it - at all, but for the sake of an intelligent and useful debate here I will admit it.

It for me has nothing to do with "Asian", though - let me make that very clear, no racism here. My grandfather was Indonesian, my best friend here in Australia is Vietnamese. I dated a guy who was half Malaysian once. Just putting that out there very clearly. NO racism here.

It is actually the "online dating" part, for me personally, that I don't understand. Bear with me here.

My partner and I met online through a game. We are gamers. We were hardly looking for love after we had both individually gone through a rough time. After a considerate amount of time spent on competitive banter (gamers... we were of enemy alliances in the game) and then increasingly long IRC chats, we found ourselves with feelings we hadn't intended on.

I have done online dating. I was in college at the time and I went on a date or two through it but it never led anywhere.

So with that said, from my own experiences and perhaps lack of ability to understand beyond my own experiences, I don't understand looking for someone in another country through online dating. I mean, please enlighten me, but wouldn't you have to purposely decide you want an international relationship in order to end up talking to someone from another continent on a dating site? That, I personally don't get. When I was on an online dating site I wouldn't even look at profiles on the other side of the country. It didn't even cross my mind to have a look at options on the other side of the world.

So that said to me there is a difference between "meeting online" and "meeting through an online dating site". The second, to me, suggests a slightly higher level of intent or awareness of what road is taken.

That doesn't mean I think it's all just people who had a big plan. I am saying on a platform like that, for myself, I don't understand how I myself would end up talking to someone from Australia unless I decided first I wouldn't mind going to Australia. Everyone can have a pre-determined plan but I personally would have been consciously going out of my way if I had looked for someone in Australia through a dating site.

PLEASE guys don't think I think I know best... I already said, it might be my own limitation that I don't get it, and if so I truly do invite you to broaden my perspective if you want.


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## Nomes79 (Jan 14, 2012)

I've noticed that the wait time can vary depending on the country you are applying from. Any ideas what it's like applying from the UK?


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

My fiance and I met in a chat room, and he was in the US at the time (actually only a couple of hours away). I had no idea then that his life path would take him to Oz, and that I would end up wanting to go with him!  I've never believed distance to be that much of a factor, though, as long as one of you is willing to move should things work out.


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

Nomes79 said:


> I've noticed that the wait time can vary depending on the country you are applying from. Any ideas what it's like applying from the UK?


8-9 months seems to be the average at the moment.


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

Nelly, you missed the point which is why is it ok for a girl from USA to meet a boy from Australia online and not get labeled a mail order bride. It is purely racist to label the Asian woman a mail order bride (which be the way was stopped over 50 years ago).

I started to explain the internet dating thing and changed my mind as quite frankly it is none of our business where people seek love as long as they are 2 consenting adults what right does anyone have to judge?

Over the last 10 years I have spent a lot of time living in Asia and plan an early retirement to the Philippines. I have more Filipino friends both male and female than I do Australian friends. I know many white guys married in excess of 10 years to Filipinos living in the Philippines or living in Australia. Some who have met online or internet dating, the one thing they have in common is good loving relationships, so don't judge or display zenophobia


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

woops hit the wrong key I meant xenophobia


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## Lindaa (Sep 24, 2012)

Nelly87 said:


> I have to tell you, you are right as rain - but I sometimes catch my mind flirting with this prejudice. I'm not proud of it - at all, but for the sake of an intelligent and useful debate here I will admit it.
> 
> It for me has nothing to do with "Asian", though - let me make that very clear, no racism here. My grandfather was Indonesian, my best friend here in Australia is Vietnamese. I dated a guy who was half Malaysian once. Just putting that out there very clearly. NO racism here.
> 
> ...


I think it depends a lot on what you are looking for when you go on online dating sites. Some might just be looking for some fun, innocent flirtation etc. and just want to talk to other people, and not really having considered what would happen if they actually fell in love with someone from the other side of the planet. If you go on these sites with the intent to find someone to spend the rest of your life with, I would imagine you'd have quite different criteria for who you'd consider engaging with, than if you're just exploring the site for fun.

For others it might be that finding that one person you can get a special connection with is more important than where they're from, because they don't really imagine they can find them - if you get my drift. And that anything beyond that is simply a bridge they'll have to cross when/if that time ever comes... 

I've never signed up for an online dating site myself, but I know that if I had I would probably have done so for fun and not really thought about where the people I was talking to were from. It would have been more about the fun of flirting with someone and killing time until that special one turned up, I guess  hehe.


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## bma (Sep 28, 2011)

jmcd16 said:


> This whole process is heartbreaking. Sometimes I wonder... if I'd have known it was going to be this hard, would I have run screaming from the Thai restaurant on our first date?
> 
> Definitely not. But it's an amusing picture. The fact is, he is worth fighting for. What we have is worth suffering for. Our future is worth waiting for.





CollegeGirl said:


> Our first date was a Thai restaurant, too! LOL! Followed by my college's version of prom, so I was super dressed up. Trying not to get thai food on a white dress is CHALLENGING. (PS - When I picked a white dress, in the back of my mind I thought, hmmmm... I wonder if this will make him think 'Wow, she looks good in white' and want to propose to me!' LOL. It took a few years, but it apparently worked! )


This is funny  I met him at Thai restaurant, a friend was having a Birthday party, and I just happened to be there at the same time with my friend...

No wonder we've all been waiting for ages, everybody mentioning Thai restaurants in Stat Decs and forms, the immigration must think we copy-paste ...


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

Apparently there is just something about Thai restaurants...


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## bma (Sep 28, 2011)

Nelly87 said:


> Thank you  the only thing I'm really worried about is two areas - in the Netherlands there's no such thing as a "statutory declaration" like in Australia - if you sign it, it's official, period. So I'm afraid they won't regard our Dutch family and friends' declarations as valid - in that case I'd hope they'd give us a chance to ask them again and get notaries involved.


You mean it's enough just to sign, and you don't have to get it certified?
Well, we had lots of "Stat Decs" from our home country, but we did get the signatures certified; it's really simple and it's done at the municipality administrative unit (for 1 euro or something). We tried to follow the form of an Australian Stat Dec, but we adapted it, of course.
Did you attach any Stat Decs by Australians? How many?

You applied for a de facto visa, didn't you? Which means you'll be assessed on the evidence at the time of the application. And have you registered your relationship?



Nelly87 said:


> The other "issue" is the biggest one, which is that my Aussie partner has been unemployed for quite some time - but I have been employed, am doing very well (with a stat dec from my supervisor as well) and my partner's mother has a house and a very good income and has written a statement noting she is happy to sign an Assurance of Support and post any bail necessary.


There's no AoS anymore, so don't waste your precious time on thinking about it, cause it doesn't exist for partner visas any longer....

You and your partner are a team, so does it really matter who works? Well, I hope you're not feeling bad because you're the only one working, and if you are, this is your private thing and you'll work this out yourself )

In my humble opinion it's important that you two as a team manage financially, and if there's family who helps, even better... Your partner's mum has written a statement, and that's great, that's what the immigration wants...

You have no idea on how little money (income) we've been all this time before we applied for a visa and while we were waiting... So little I'd be actually embarrassed to say... We didn't ask to lift working restrictions for my partner, though. As a sponsor I have to provide for both and we didn't want that to hurt our application (and we managed, just on very little money).



Nelly87 said:


> My fear is that they won't even ask us for those things (better Dutch stat decs or the Assurance of Support) and just go ahead and turn us straight down... because everything is so behind closed doors I never know what to expect. !


There is no AoS; but you are on decent money, so there is no problem. There's just a question of certified Stat Decs, that's why I asked whether you attached any by Australians?
If you have, then it's probably all good; if you haven't, it might be a good idea to get the same stat decs done again, and this time certify the statements (but the same text, so they just replace the old ones; cause remember - you're assessed based on the evidence at the time of lodgement); this might bring you a piece of mind.



Nelly87 said:


> Just have to remind myself there is no point in worrying! It is just very hard to make plans and build a life together not knowing if it'll have to be broken back down the next day. I didn't expect a quick grant... I am
> moreso afraid of the rejection, early or late!


We were very afraid of rejection, too. I think it's natural, you hear all these stories and you start to worry, especially when you see how quickly others got their visas. I'm not an Australian citizen, we were on little money, he was on an eVisitor, etc. etc. Of course we were worried, especially after not hearing from the immigration for 13 months. But we were pleasantly surprised too, when we got the visa granted without any questions and without having to redo the medicals and the police check.

What made us calmer in the past 13 months of waiting for the visa was the fact that there are others who have been waiting for a year, and not necessarily from high risk countries; so we persuaded ourselves that all is good and normal. Although my hubby was freaking out, he just didn't say it loud to spare me the stress...

Here is an extract from the DIAC Procedures Advice Manual, which is not publicly available; certain registered migration agent posted this on the forum once, and I saved it...
_
The following examples illustrate that the assessment should focus on whether the financial and accommodation undertakings can be met over a two year period and that a range of relevant factors such as family support, are to be taken into account.

Example 1 - The sponsor is unemployed

The sponsor is an Australian citizen who has lived overseas for 20 years. The relationship between the sponsor and their spouse is of a lengthy duration and there are two children of the relationship who are Australian citizens by descent. The spouse does not speak English and has no employment or educational qualifications. The sponsor does not have a job in Australia although qualified for skilled employment. The family intends to live with the sponsor's sibling (who has a 5 bedroom house) until they find somewhere else to live.

Example 2 - The sponsor is self-employed

The sponsor is an itinerant Australian citizen unable to provide a residential address. The sponsor's tax assessments indicated that the sponsor earned less than AUD 15 000 net annually over the past 2 years and has no savings. The sponsor married a person who holds a visitor visa. The spouse does not speak English and has no educational or employment qualifications. The sponsor describes himself as self-employed. He does not draw Centrelink benefits and claimed that the spouse will be able to support themself by picking up casual work as the couple travel around Australia. The sponsor has no assets, other than their vehicle, which is valued at less that AUD 4 000 and is insured only for 3rd party property. The sponsor and partner have been living in the vehicle since their marriage.
In this case, the officer did not approve the sponsorship as the sponsor failed._

All the best


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## Nelly87 (Jul 3, 2011)

Aussieboy07 said:


> Nelly, you missed the point which is why is it ok for a girl from USA to meet a boy from Australia online and not get labeled a mail order bride. It is purely racist to label the Asian woman a mail order bride (which be the way was stopped over 50 years ago).
> 
> I started to explain the internet dating thing and changed my mind as quite frankly it is none of our business where people seek love as long as they are 2 consenting adults what right does anyone have to judge?
> 
> Over the last 10 years I have spent a lot of time living in Asia and plan an early retirement to the Philippines. I have more Filipino friends both male and female than I do Australian friends. I know many white guys married in excess of 10 years to Filipinos living in the Philippines or living in Australia. Some who have met online or internet dating, the one thing they have in common is good loving relationships, so don't judge or display zenophobia


Frankly, and with all due respect, I think you missed _my_ point as well if I missed yours at all, as I was purposely spinning off to a different subject and not lingering on racism because I have nothing to say about it other than it's disgusting.

If I invite you to broaden my perspective, which I feel I elaborately did, and you choose to suddenly decide nothing is anyone's business and the conversation is over and I am xenophobic, then so be it. I was hoping for your input but if you want to close the discussion off here then that is up to you.


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

You are correct people who go on an oversees internet dating sight are doing it purposefully to meet someone from a different country. Reasons vary for every individual including to have a better lifestyle, they enjoy the other countries customs or cultures, don't like the behavior of the opposite sex in their country, maybe a single mother where the father just runs off and does not assist with the child in any way so are seeking someone to help complete their family and overlooked by single men of their country, they are attracted to the physical looks of the people from the other country ie fairer skin or Asian face the list is endless, the same as the list is endless for those who seek within their own country
My male friends who met their partners through online dating were well travelled and obviously experienced different cultures and saw opportunity where others may not. Though like yourself they felt a relationship growing on the internet over a period of time which was cemented once they met in person. So to call someone a mail order bride simply because they are Asian is despicable in my opinion.
On another note sorry I am over sensitive in relation to even a hint of racism, my ex-wife was denied medical attention (urgent xray) and was told that she must have bought her medicare card even though she presented her photo drivers license as proof. I heard as we were leaving what right do they have to come and get our tax payers money, funny my wife was working in Australia at the time. We went to the hospital then and she was admitted for 2 months


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## Nelly87 (Jul 3, 2011)

Aussieboy07 said:


> You are correct people who go on an oversees internet dating sight are doing it purposefully to meet someone from a different country. Reasons vary for every individual including to have a better lifestyle, they enjoy the other countries customs or cultures, don't like the behavior of the opposite sex in their country, maybe a single mother where the father just runs off and does not assist with the child in any way so are seeking someone to help complete their family and overlooked by single men of their country, they are attracted to the physical looks of the people from the other country ie fairer skin or Asian face the list is endless, the same as the list is endless for those who seek within their own country
> My male friends who met their partners through online dating were well travelled and obviously experienced different cultures and saw opportunity where others may not. Though like yourself they felt a relationship growing on the internet over a period of time which was cemented once they met in person. So to call someone a mail order bride simply because they are Asian is despicable in my opinion.
> On another note sorry I am over sensitive in relation to even a hint of racism, my ex-wife was denied medical attention (urgent xray) and was told that she must have bought her medicare card even though she presented her photo drivers license as proof. I heard as we were leaving what right do they have to come and get our tax payers money, funny my wife was working in Australia at the time. We went to the hospital then and she was admitted for 2 months


Thank you for explaining your side of it all, Aussieboy - I really appreciate it and you made some points I had never come up with because I have been privileged enough to not have to be in those positions; such as gender roles in someone's home country and culture. That actually explains a lot to me. I can also imagine, like you said, that in some cultures divorced or abandoned women with children aren't as accepted. See I hadn't even thought of any of that, and I knew I had to be missing something, hence I just put it out there to see if I was.

I am so sorry to hear about what happened to your ex-wife. Please believe me I am nowhere near racist, or have any kind of prejudice towards any nationality or race at all. Race/nationality has always been a very odd phenomenon to me - probably mostly because I am the product of immigrant grandfathers on both sides; my mother's father was Indonesian, my father's father was Polish. At the moment The Netherlands in fairly tense in terms of immigrations and foreigners... and whenever those discussions started about "us" and "them"... I never knew where I belonged because my grandfathers are much more part of me than those 99,99999% of Dutch people who consider me "one of them" because I am white and have a Dutch passport. I've just never understood the "them"/"us" concept, it's not even part of my mind, because I guess I've always felt like neither. I've dated outside "my race" (as I said, whatever the hell that is) and I dare say the majority of my friends are not Caucasian. You can trust me when I say I never play the race card because I've never even owned one.

Unfortunately there is a lot of prejudice out there regarding race, still. The few Australian people of my generation I have met who come from Asian backgrounds, all seem to very firmly reject their background because of it. They don't want to be seen as that prejudice so they're the ones who yell it loudest sometimes, which shocks me. That is, of course, the second generation ones who were born in Australia.

I've noticed, though, that if you are anywhere in the world and not as a tourist, and people hear an accent or see a different colour, their first instinct is still to categorize. Analyze, categorize, and THEN ask questions, when it's already too late. I think that's a very long road we all have to travel down to change that. It's deeply rooted in many people, unfortunately.


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## Whitney (Jan 4, 2013)

bma said:


> This is funny  I met him at Thai restaurant, a friend was having a Birthday party, and I just happened to be there at the same time with my friend...
> 
> No wonder we've all been waiting for ages, everybody mentioning Thai restaurants in Stat Decs and forms, the immigration must think we copy-paste ...


I know I'm a bit behind on this but I just have to add that my partner cooked me Pad Thai on our first date and we now consider it 'our dish'!


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

I'm tellin ya - Thai food is magic.


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

Nelly87 said:


> I've noticed, though, that if you are anywhere in the world and not as a tourist, and people hear an accent or see a different colour, their first instinct is still to categorize. Analyze, categorize, and THEN ask questions, when it's already too late. I think that's a very long road we all have to travel down to change that. It's deeply rooted in many people, unfortunately.


So true! It was hilarious - I visited France years ago, briefly, and I spoke nary a lick of French. I knew that because of my body size the French people were going to take one look at me and go "Oh, fat American!" (Which, of course, I am. Hahahaha.) So instead of speaking English everywhere I went, I spoke fluent Spanish with a specific accent based on where I was living at the time. It confused the hell out of all of them! It was hilarious! They'd say "Where are you from?!" I'd say "Spain," and they'd say "nooooo...." Hahahahahah. But, of course, there's also a stereotype that Americans never bother to learn any other language, so I made no sense to them at all!   

I have to admit, I'm a little worried about the treatment I'll get as a fat American in Australia... I imagine I'll face more than a bit of prejudice. But I face it here in my own country as well, so I'd rather deal with it alongside the love of my life.


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## 18302 (Nov 23, 2011)

CollegeGirl said:


> I have to admit, I'm a little worried about the treatment I'll get as a fat American in Australia... I imagine I'll face more than a bit of prejudice. But I face it here in my own country as well, so I'd rather deal with it alongside the love of my life.


I wouldn't worry too much, we're in the top 10 countries in the world - but of course, America has to be number 1 at everything


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

Yeah, it's just that immigrant + fat = double the prejudice, perhaps. Who knows, though. I probably worry too much.


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## 18302 (Nov 23, 2011)

CollegeGirl said:


> Yeah, it's just that immigrant + fat = double the prejudice, perhaps. Who knows, though. I probably worry too much.


If it makes you feel any better, I was quite skinny before my partner arrived in Australia... her amazing Indonesian cooking has done bad things to my belly! We only live once - may as well be happy and enjoy it!! Don't worry about the haters


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

The good news is that Australia caters for fat people, try buying an xlarge shirt in the philippines


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

oh forgot to mention I often hear the word tambock (fat) shocks the hell out of them when I reply pungit (ugly) in tagalog


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## sarahw418 (Nov 1, 2012)

My fiance and I met online, as gamers. I really don't see it's that different then meeting on a dating site. The personal chat is similiar, you get to know people, see that you have the same things in common. It is just you have one more thing in common right off the start, the game.

We have never had Thai together though, so I will make a point that we go out for Thai as our first date in Australia


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

Mousehunt has a lot to answer for hehe


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## MarcusAurelius (Feb 23, 2012)

bma said:


> Hey MarcusAurelius, as a fellow 2012 Sydney applicant I'd like to let you know that our 820 has just been granted. We had been waiting for 13 months. Have you been granted your visa yet?
> All the best!


Hi bma, sorry for the lack of reply! I am unfortunately still waiting, and got an email from DIAC advising me that the Sydney waiting times were at 18 months for most applicants.

Congratulations on your visa, you've waited a long time for it. I'm looking towards November at the moment.


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## bma (Sep 28, 2011)

MarcusAurelius said:


> Hi bma, sorry for the lack of reply! I am unfortunately still waiting, and got an email from DIAC advising me that the Sydney waiting times were at 18 months for most applicants.
> 
> Congratulations on your visa, you've waited a long time for it. I'm looking towards November at the moment.


Well, knowing there were others who have been waiting for quite some time in Sydney made me worry less, but nevertheless I'm surprised you haven't received your visa yet. I was sure you were granted, too. I saw another forum user just got her visa granted, and she applied after us, in May 2012. That's all so weird. Who knows, they might be picking up a few cases of the particular month, and then move on to the next month... who knows, I really don't get it.
Definitely keep us posted and good luck!


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## jmcd16 (Aug 5, 2012)

I've decided that they pick a few random ones to just push through every month. My reasoning being that they have to keep "average" processing times down somehow...
If you aren't a lucky winner, you get thrown in the dust pile.


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## 18302 (Nov 23, 2011)

jmcd16 said:


> I've decided that they pick a few random ones to just push through every month. My reasoning being that they have to keep "average" processing times down somehow...
> If you aren't a lucky winner, you get thrown in the dust pile.


Hehe, nice theory. Not sure if that's what they do or not...

My wife's 820 application was submitted it as decision ready and it looks like they decided it was decision ready because they granted it this afternoon!
It took 14 days from the date they received it via post until it was granted.

There is light at the end of the tunnel for everyone, it just travels to some people faster than others unfortunately.


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## KMD (Jun 21, 2013)

Just a brief background: My husband and I met online late 2009, I'm Australian, he's American, he came over to Australia June 2010 on a work holiday visa, married early June 2011, applied for a tourist visa while we got our application ready for the onshore 820 in June 2011, lodged our application December 2011 with all information other than medical, police clearances and a few other documents that were requested later, he moved onto the bridging visa and we imaged a very long wait to hear anything back, in this time we never expected any news, and if we did get any it would be via mail... well apparently while we weren't paying attention to his email we had a CO assigned along with a request for further docs in October 2012 that we had to respond to within 28 days...oops, didn't see it until March 2013 but quickly responded thinking we were beyond help haha our case officer is a lovely woman who gave us more time and today (June 21) we've sent off all the requested documents (police clearance for Australia and US | Medical | Form 80 | Some form 888's | joint bank account details and lease agreement was all we had to send off as our CO said everything we'd previously sent had been more than sufficient, which really in my opinion wasn't much at all) so here's hoping it's all fast and smooth from here on out! 

It's such a long and painful process, the paperwork is ridiculous and repetitive, no one ever mentions that... People say they have issues with "boat people", I say take away their translators and migration experts and let them do it all on their own and I'm sure they'd just get back in and row away haha! 

For those who've been approved within "weeks" (liars) consider yourselves very very fortunate. I haven't really stressed about it all too much, and I see so many people who put so much detail in to their applications it makes me wonder whhhy ours would be accepted at all, but in conversation with our CO, if they ask for a medical after lodgment, that's a good sign! So here's hoping my seemingly lazy attempt ends up with great news!! 

So for the TLDR

Date of application: 29 Dec 2011

Nationality: United States

Visa type: Partner (Temporary) Visa (Class UK) and a Partner (Residence) Visa (Class BS)

Offshore/onshore: Onshore

Medicals submitted (yes/no): Yes (Requested in 26 Oct 2012) (Sent 21 June 2013) (Such a long wait...I know, but we requested a longer time frame as we were very very busy at the time, and experienced a missed email!)

Police check submitted (yes/no): Yes (Requested in 26 Oct 2012) (Sent 21 June 2013) (Such a long wait...I know, but we requested a longer time frame as we were very very busy at the time, and experienced a missed email!)

Date CO assigned: 26 Oct 2012

Date visa granted: Still waiting!!!


So it has been such a long wait! 18 months in fact, partly due to our ignorance of emails lol but we expected a long wait regardless but hopefully it's all smooth sailing from here. I know I know, I sound so lazy compared to most people on here, but... blah, I'd rather be lazy about it than stress!


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hi KMD
This had me LOL, very well crafted especially
It's such a long and painful process, the paperwork is ridiculous and repetitive, no one ever mentions that... People say they have issues with "boat people", I say take away their translators and migration experts and let them do it all on their own and I'm sure they'd just get back in and row away haha! 

For those who've been approved within "weeks" (liars) consider yourselves very very fortunate. I haven't really stressed about it all too much, and I see so many people who put so much detail in to their applications it makes me wonder whhhy ours would be accepted at all, but in conversation with our CO, if they ask for a medical after lodgment, that's a good sign! So here's hoping my seemingly lazy attempt ends up with great news!! 
I hope you don't mind but I have taken a copy of the above to share with friends in another thread. Please keep writing you are a breath of fresh air so to speak.


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

Wow, 18 months is a LONG time for an application by an American, even considering the long delay between your seeing the missed e-mail and responding to it. I actually find it amazing they still let you do it and didn't just close out your case. You are SUPER lucky!!!


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## Cleophus (Jun 20, 2013)

I applied for my skilled independent visa 5 and a half yrs back and am still waiting. It was never an easy way up till now. Initially in 2005 I had to apply for the TRA's (Trade Recognition Australia ) skill assessment test and passed it in the second chance. I t took 2 yrs time for the whole process. submitted piles of papers as supporting documents. including IELTS with the required score etc etc.those days there wasn't any one who could really help you in this matter. So I had to search through the immi web site reading reading. . And finally submitted the visa application on 22 December 2007. Now I got the case officer and my health check is over, and still waiting..I think keeping the applicants clue less is extremely cruel. but it will be a dream come true if I get the visa granted because i have waited for a life time for this visa visa and visa...


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## KMD (Jun 21, 2013)

CollegeGirl said:


> Wow, 18 months is a LONG time for an application by an American, even considering the long delay between your seeing the missed e-mail and responding to it. I actually find it amazing they still let you do it and didn't just close out your case. You are SUPER lucky!!!


Yes we were very lucky, there was a lot of stressing waiting to hear back from our CO after my frantic email about missing the email haha I didn't see it until after closing hours, so all night I was beyond worried, called first thing in the morning and spoke with her as she had just viewed the email and she thankfully said it was all okay.

Hopefully it goes quickly now with a successful outcome


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## KMD (Jun 21, 2013)

Aussieboy07 said:


> Hi KMD
> This had me LOL, very well crafted especially
> It's such a long and painful process, the paperwork is ridiculous and repetitive, no one ever mentions that... People say they have issues with "boat people", I say take away their translators and migration experts and let them do it all on their own and I'm sure they'd just get back in and row away haha!
> 
> ...


It's a little daunting viewing every one elses timelines compared to ours I must say!


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

Hi KMD
check the thread out below for creating a timeline

Creating a timeline and putting it in your signature. Plus other useful links & info 

Once you have created a timeline go to the top of this page to the top black line in the middle it says "timelines" go there and scroll down to "all family and spouse timelines" then click on the red button "report search" enter the information requested and then you can easily compare yourself to everyone else who had done a timeline and you can search by visa type and embassy. Handy tool and interesting to see how you compare to others.

Hint when creating a timeline it refers to BBCODE this is actually emailed to your email address not to the forum


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## KMD (Jun 21, 2013)

Aussieboy07 said:


> Hi KMD
> check the thread out below for creating a timeline
> 
> Creating a timeline and putting it in your signature. Plus other useful links & info
> ...


I can't yet :/ I have to have 5 posts first or something like that.


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## KMD (Jun 21, 2013)

So just a quick update! Called my husband's CO this morning, our application looks great and looks like it's getting approved in July as the quota for the financial year is already filled. Pretty damn excited about it!


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## Whitney (Jan 4, 2013)

KMD said:


> So just a quick update! Called my husband's CO this morning, our application looks great and looks like it's getting approved in July as the quota for the financial year is already filled. Pretty damn excited about it!


Thanks for sharing that info about filling the quota! I'll lay off watching for the Aus Post truck delivering my approval until July. haha


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## Oz4Pom (Apr 30, 2013)

I might be wrong but I dont think that the 820 has a quota?!?!?

Ours was approved in May after 5.5 weeks. My husband was on a visitor visa which people have said is a bit of a no-no but didnt have any reverse effect for us. 

Our application was heavily frontloaded however he obviously was unable to work so our financial joint commitments were few, it didnt seem to matter though. 

Good luck all


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## 18302 (Nov 23, 2011)

Oz4Pom said:


> I might be wrong but I dont think that the 820 has a quota?!?!?


That's correct, there is no quota for the 820. Perhaps KMD's partner has applied for a 300 or 309?


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## Oz4Pom (Apr 30, 2013)

Yeah I assume so, I was more thinking for Whitney


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## Springerella (Jun 7, 2013)

I'm starting to think the applications might be prioritised based on the current substantative visa end date. So Oz4Pom's partner was on a tourist visa which will expire shortly. My 457 doesn't expire until sept 2015 so they have lots of time to process mine so I imagine I've gone to the bottom of the pile.

Anyone think otheriwse??


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## Oz4Pom (Apr 30, 2013)

hmmm interesting theory, his visa was due to run out 8th july but of course then BVA would have kicked in with full work rights.


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

Let the conspiracy theories begin, then the paranoia sets in and before you know it Elvis will be working in the embassy hahaha Sorry but I have been there and done that and have learnt there is no logic to what happens within the walls of the embassy. I am guessing it is run by a bunch of aliens like in the movie "Men in Black"

Just to be clear, it is only the fiancée visa that can be capped and it will not effect anyone here now as it is only 4 days to the start of the new financial year


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

For Queenslanders in PH, state of origin 22 minute QLD 14 NSW 0


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## abc (Sep 11, 2012)

Aussieboy07 said:


> For Queenslanders in PH, state of origin 22 minute QLD 14 NSW 0


Go QLD ))))I heard screaming neighbour next door!!!


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## KMD (Jun 21, 2013)

No, we applied for the 820, you're right that there's no quota, I asked her about that too when she mentioned it as I was sure there was none for 820's but she said when it's so close to the end of June they slow it down until July just so the numbers 'look better for the reports'. We did not frontload our application at all, just sent in minimum paperwork and waited for requests, I'm sure it would have gone a lot faster if we had, but we spoke to a few people at DIAC that said sometimes it's easier to just wait for req. for info as it's really the only way to see how your visa is progressing. If we had to do it all over again, we'd definitely get all the info aside from medical sent in with the app.


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## jmcd16 (Aug 5, 2012)

Its my understanding that There are quotas, just not caps. They aren't allowed to cap and queue officially like they do for PMVs, but that doesn't stop them from slowing down processing so they don't exceed the "planning numbers" by too much... Which is probably the official term for what is essentially a quota. Plus... We wouldn't want them working too hard, now would we  

Someone else said that there is no logic to DIAC... And if there is one thing I've learned in this process, it's that.

I've seen front-loaded applications take ages while applications missing things go through in weeks. I've seen people with loads of evidence get asked for more while people who supplied next to nothing get ushered through in record time. I've seen people who don't technically meet requirements slip through and people in the same situation get rejected. I've seen real relationships get rejected while ones that I 100% know are fake make it through just fine.

There is no rhyme or reason. There is no way to hedge your bets or make the "right" choice for a quick application. You either get lucky or you get shafted and there is no way to ensure it one way or the other.


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

jmcd16
So you have had the enlightening experience, I totally agree with everything you have said hence the reason I have called it Friday lotto because your chances are similar


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## jmcd16 (Aug 5, 2012)

Haha. Similar, but different! Here with the US Embassy, it's the Thursday 3-4:30PM lotto


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## KMD (Jun 21, 2013)

820 visa approval grant letter arrived via email this morning!


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## 18302 (Nov 23, 2011)

Lucky you. My partner sent her application in on 16th May and hasn't received a single thing back from them, not even a confirmation letter in the mail. They told us to email the processing centre and wait 4 weeks for a response :/

The visa has been granted though lol.


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## KMD (Jun 21, 2013)

BonezAU said:


> Lucky you. My partner sent her application in on 16th May and hasn't received a single thing back from them, not even a confirmation letter in the mail. They told us to email the processing centre and wait 4 weeks for a response :/
> 
> The visa has been granted though lol.


Hey, I think you're talking about approval to move onto the bridging visa in your case, is this correct? I ask because I noticed your timeline and see you only lodged not that long ago. 
Am I correct in assuming you're at the stage where you've sent in your application and now are just waiting for the letter back stating your application has been lodged?


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## 18302 (Nov 23, 2011)

KMD said:


> Hey, I think you're talking about approval to move onto the bridging visa in your case, is this correct? I ask because I noticed your timeline and see you only lodged not that long ago.
> Am I correct in assuming you're at the stage where you've sent in your application and now are just waiting for the letter back stating your application has been lodged?


My timeline is actually correct. The 820 application was sent on 16th May and granted on 29th May. They did not grant a bridging visa, it just went straight from subclass 300 to 820. According to Immigration, they sent the grant letter (and I presume returned our photos and other bits they don't keep) the same day the visa was granted, but it's completely gone missing, or they forgot to send it.

So the 820 was granted 2 weeks after they received the application and VEVO confirms that. There's just been absolutely zero correspondence from DIAC.

My partner emailed the processing centre on 12th June asking for them to scan and email whatever they had tried to send us by post, and the default auto reply said to wait up to 4 weeks for an email response. It's been about 3 weeks so far and still nothing. I might give them another call today...


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## KMD (Jun 21, 2013)

BonezAU said:


> My timeline is actually correct. ...
> 
> So the 820 was granted 2 weeks after they received the application and VEVO confirms that. There's just been absolutely zero correspondence from DIAC.


That's crazy! Congrats on such a fast turn around, I would definitely call them, but I always find talking to a person is much more calming than relying on an automated email system to get around to the right person!


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## 18302 (Nov 23, 2011)

KMD said:


> That's crazy! Congrats on such a fast turn around, I would definitely call them, but I always find talking to a person is much more calming than relying on an automated email system to get around to the right person!


Thanks, we were really surprised too. It was submitted as decision ready but we didn't think it would be *that* fast. Unfortunately in the couple of times I've called, they have promised to send an email to the processing centre on my behalf and now they are just unhelpful and say "well you'll have to wait for them to reply", so not sure if calling them is going to even do anything. The call centre staff don't seem to have phone contact with any of the processing centres and just email like we do :/ No harm in trying again though I guess.


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## frankiefrankies (Aug 5, 2011)

I was approved in 8 days after applyibg for my partner visa. It is possible, but it depends on the strong case you present.


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## queliwantstogo (Apr 29, 2013)

frankiefrankies said:


> I was approved in 8 days after applyibg for my partner visa. It is possible, but it depends on the strong case you present.


Congratulations. 

not only does it depend on the quality and amount of paperwork you submit, though, it also depends a lot on luck (or unfortunately, in many cases, lack thereof).


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