# Australian citizenship - Ministerial Discretions - living overseas



## hazi (Oct 20, 2013)

Hi,

Regarding Australian Citizenship - Ministerial Discretion

Anyone can help my case please ?

I got Australian Citizenship, sponsored my wife who got PR in 11/8/2014, Feb 2015 she came to Australia to activate PR status. After one week, she went overseas to work.

We both are living in overseas right now because we have jobs there (not Australian Government jobs), we visit Australia one time every year, I bought a house which is rent in Australia and paid income tax for the rent income as normal. Also, my son is Australian Citizen (by descent).

She can't get General requirement because she is living with me (Australian Citizen) in overseas.

However _"The Minister has discretionary powers to vary the residence requirement in the following circumstances, if you will be in Australia at the time your application is decided. If you will be overseas during this period, only discretions 5 and 6 below apply." _

_"5. "If you have spent time outside Australia as a permanent resident with your Australian citizen spouse or partner, or are the surviving spouse or partner of an Australian citizen and have a close and continuing association with Australia, then that period of time may be treated as time spent in Australia."_

My question is that, Could she apply for a Citizenship based on Ministerial Discretions in Feb 2019 (after 04 year hold PR) ?

I highly appreciate your kind helps

Regards

Harry


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## Jeremy Hooper (Jul 10, 2014)

It comes under Section 22.9 or the Citizenship Act. Has to show a strong continuing association with Australia. I am doing one of these at the moment. I haven't got the result as yet.


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## hazi (Oct 20, 2013)

Jeremy Hooper said:


> It comes under Section 22.9 or the Citizenship Act. Has to show a strong continuing association with Australia. I am doing one of these at the moment. I haven't got the result as yet.


Thanks Jeremy,

We have a child who is a Aussie Citizen, I owned a house in Melbourne, but the title is not in both, do you think it is a strong continuing association with Australia ? If you can, can you suggest what a strong continuing association with Australia is ?

Thanks Jeremy once again

Harry


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## shisa (Jun 11, 2013)

Hi Harry,

I applied under ministerial discretion on 10 March 2017 with almost the same situation as yours. I received a test appointment for 13 September 2017. So fingers crossed!


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## hazi (Oct 20, 2013)

shisa said:


> Hi Harry,
> 
> I applied under ministerial discretion on 10 March 2017 with almost the same situation as yours. I received a test appointment for 13 September 2017. So fingers crossed!


Thanks for your reply, i do hope my wife will get citizenship soon

Dont you mind listing what documents i need to prepare for Immigration except for general requirements?

Thanks in advance!

Harry


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## shisa (Jun 11, 2013)

Hi Harry,

My husband and I have a small business in Australia so I gave them documents to show that the business is up and running although I wasn't in Australia. Also, I gave them tax documents showing that I paid my taxes. I wrote a statement explaining the reasons why I was not in Australia.

Best of luck to you and your wife.


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## hazi (Oct 20, 2013)

shisa said:


> Hi Harry,
> 
> My husband and I have a small business in Australia so I gave them documents to show that the business is up and running although I wasn't in Australia. Also, I gave them tax documents showing that I paid my taxes. I wrote a statement explaining the reasons why I was not in Australia.
> 
> Best of luck to you and your wife.


Thanks a lot Shisa, I will prepare documents for my wife as what you advised.

All the best

Harry


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## niyam (Oct 17, 2017)

shisa said:


> Hi Harry,
> 
> My husband and I have a small business in Australia so I gave them documents to show that the business is up and running although I wasn't in Australia. Also, I gave them tax documents showing that I paid my taxes. I wrote a statement explaining the reasons why I was not in Australia.
> 
> Best of luck to you and your wife.


Hey Shisa,

Just following your conversation with Harry... im in a similar position, applied for my citizenship on 23rd Jan 2017 and have not heard anything from the department till today. I called them up and was told to wait for their response. Do you know if you have to be in Australia for them to give a decision? My wife and son are both australian citizens and I have to travel overseas for work, hope thats not making my decision to take long.


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## shisa (Jun 11, 2013)

niyam said:


> Hey Shisa,
> 
> Just following your conversation with Harry... im in a similar position, applied for my citizenship on 23rd Jan 2017 and have not heard anything from the department till today. I called them up and was told to wait for their response. Do you know if you have to be in Australia for them to give a decision? My wife and son are both australian citizens and I have to travel overseas for work, hope thats not making my decision to take long.


Hi niyam,

I'm not sure to be honest. I'm currently waiting for my approval letter and I'm not going to leave Australia until I receive it, just in case it has any effect on my application.


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## andrewjames (Nov 30, 2017)

Hi everyone, are there any updates on your applications? There is very little info online about these kind of applications. I look forward to the day when mine gets assessed. I applied in October so it's likely to be a while.


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## shisa (Jun 11, 2013)

andrewjames said:


> Hi everyone, are there any updates on your applications? There is very little info online about these kind of applications. I look forward to the day when mine gets assessed. I applied in October so it's likely to be a while.


Hi andrewjames,

I'm still waiting for my approval letter.


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## andrewjames (Nov 30, 2017)

Thanks shisa. Have you had any feedback on your application other than taking the test?


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## shisa (Jun 11, 2013)

andrewjames said:


> Thanks shisa. Have you had any feedback on your application other than taking the test?


No, unfortunately I haven't had any kind of communication from the department before or after my test other than the email for test appointment.


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## Ricky_hope1 (Jun 3, 2013)

*Ministrial discretion*



shisa said:


> Hi Harry,
> 
> I applied under ministerial discretion on 10 March 2017 with almost the same situation as yours. I received a test appointment for 13 September 2017. So fingers crossed!


Hello Shisa, Can you help me with cover letter you may have put together for this.

Regards


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## shisa (Jun 11, 2013)

Ricky_hope1 said:


> Hello Shisa, Can you help me with cover letter you may have put together for this.
> 
> Regards


Hi Ricky_hope1,

What can I help you with?


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## Ricky_hope1 (Jun 3, 2013)

shisa said:


> Hi Ricky_hope1,
> 
> What can I help you with?


Can you email me the letter you wrote to immigration.i want to look at format and contents of letter.

Thanks
Ricky


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## hazi (Oct 20, 2013)

Jeremy Hooper said:


> It comes under Section 22.9 or the Citizenship Act. Has to show a strong continuing association with Australia. I am doing one of these at the moment. I haven't got the result as yet.


Hi Jeremy,

Have you heard any news from Immigration about the application?

Regards,

Harry


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## oscar555 (May 21, 2018)

Hey guys,

Can anyone here who has applied their Aussie citizenship involving Ministerial Discretions whilst living overseas give us an update on your progress share their experiences so far? Thank you very much


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

Applied in January 18 - haven't heard a thing since then...


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## shisa (Jun 11, 2013)

Update on my timeline. Finally got my online approval!

Council – Brisbane City
From high risk country
Paper application – 10 March 2017
Test email – 13 Jun 2017
Test appointment – 13 Sep 2017
Sat test – 13 Sep 2017/Passed 95%
Import application into IMMI - 26 Mar 2018
Online approval – 16 Jun 2018
Approval letter - TBA
Ceremony invitation – TBA
Ceremony date – TBA

P.S. Requested IGIS and FOI, found out my file was untouched for 9 months. Sent an email to HA with the received info a week ago and got online approval on Saturday.


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## whtzau (Jun 19, 2018)

*QQ*

Hi Tomberli,

When you lodged citizenship application with claiming ministerial discretion 
were you in Australia or outside of Australia ?



tomberli said:


> Applied in January 18 - haven't heard a thing since then...


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## whtzau (Jun 19, 2018)

*QQ*

Hi Shisa,

Congratulation !!!

Between 10/03/2013 and 10/03/2017, did you stay in Australia for over than 365 days ? and were you in Australia when you sent paper application ?



shisa said:


> Update on my timeline. Finally got my online approval!
> 
> Council - Brisbane City
> From high risk country
> ...


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## shisa (Jun 11, 2013)

whtzau said:


> Hi Shisa,
> 
> Congratulation !!!
> 
> Between 10/03/2013 and 10/03/2017, did you stay in Australia for over than 365 days ? and were you in Australia when you sent paper application ?


Hi whtzau,

No to your first question and yes to the second one


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

Hi. I applied from overseas and I've been out of the country for well over a year - but I've lived in Australia previously for seven years and am married to an Australian citizen and the father of another one...



whtzau said:


> Hi Tomberli,
> 
> When you lodged citizenship application with claiming ministerial discretion
> were you in Australia or outside of Australia ?


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## whtzau (Jun 19, 2018)

shisa said:


> Hi whtzau,
> 
> No to your first question and yes to the second one


Hi Shisa,

I am preparing the statement to claim discretion 5.

I have Australian husband (married for 10 years) , Australian kids studying in year 3 and 5, but no property in Australia (renting house), lodge tax return for minor saving interest, no Australian employment record , attend kids' school events...

I am not sure if I have strong association with Australia ..so may need to consult you...

Based on Citizenship Policy Document, if applicants stay in Australia for at least 365 days during the 4 year period, more weight should be given to indicated supporting factors.

Providing you stayed in Australia less than 365 days during your 4 year period, may I know your stronger point to claim close and continuous association with Australia while ur overseas ? your advice would be highly appreciated.


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## shisa (Jun 11, 2013)

whtzau said:


> Hi Shisa,
> 
> I am preparing the statement to claim discretion 5.
> 
> ...


Hi whtzau,

My husband and I have a small business in Australia so I gave them documents to show that the business is up and running although I wasn't in Australia. Also, I gave them tax documents showing that I paid my taxes. I wrote a statement explaining the reasons why I was not in Australia.


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## I_Ire (May 13, 2013)

Did you get an update Andrewjames? what documents did you provide for this?


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## andrewjames (Nov 30, 2017)

Nothing yet  I provide lots and lots and lots to prove connections, in line with what's stated in section 22(9).


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## I_Ire (May 13, 2013)

andrewjames said:


> Nothing yet  I provide lots and lots and lots to prove connections, in line with what's stated in section 22(9).


What did you use as close ties with Australia if you don't mind me asking?


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## andrewjames (Nov 30, 2017)

Too much to write here  But if you work through their list of typical items, it's reasonably obvious. Like they talk about property - so you have either a lease or a mortgage/title deed. Or for children, you would have their birth certificates and passports. Maybe you have a business...company tax returns etc.


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## I_Ire (May 13, 2013)

Thanks, where did you find the list of items? I can't seem to find that.


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## andrewjames (Nov 30, 2017)

Section 22(9) is the legislation section that you are relying on. It has everything there.


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## hazi (Oct 20, 2013)

shisa said:


> Update on my timeline. Finally got my online approval!
> 
> Council - Brisbane City
> From high risk country
> ...


good to hear from you and congrats,


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

So, after nearly two years of not hearing a word from the department (I applied in January 2018 under ministerial discretion), I finally have been getting updates. First they asked me to renew my RR-Visa (I still had a valid one, but it was due to expire) and as soon as I had provided that, they asked for a new penal clearance, since they old one didn't list all my crimes from the last two years yet. Curious to see what happens next.


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

Well, what happened next was that I got invited to my citizenship test at the London office.After nearly two years of waiting, it appears that even under ministerial discretion something is moving along.



tomberli said:


> So, after nearly two years of not hearing a word from the department (I applied in January 2018 under ministerial discretion), I finally have been getting updates. First they asked me to renew my RR-Visa (I still had a valid one, but it was due to expire) and as soon as I had provided that, they asked for a new penal clearance, since they old one didn't list all my crimes from the last two years yet. Curious to see what happens next.


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## MinisterialLongshot (Oct 31, 2019)

tomberli said:


> Well, what happened next was that I got invited to my citizenship test at the London office.After nearly two years of waiting, it appears that even under ministerial discretion something is moving along.


Hi all ! : )

We are at the same step tomberli ! So cool !

Anyway, here's my story ...

I applied for ministerial discretion 5 (basically: I've been living outside AU with my aussie spouse. I am applying online from abroad.). I supplied a whole bunch of documents, especially to prove "close and continuing relationship" which is the really crucial part of these applications as far as I understand it (especially looking at the court cases and the internal DIBP guidelines).

After 14 months of waiting, I suddenly got an invitation to bring my identity documents (only identity documents like passport/birth certificate, apparently they do not want the other original documents in the applications) to an interview at the embassy and to also sit the test.

This all seems pretty positive and a "normal flow" for citizenship applications.

They also reminded me that I can sit the test as long as my current PR/RRV is valid (i.e. it has to be valid on the day of the test) so I've made sure that is the case.

Question1: tomberli, did they ask you to bring other documents than passport/birth certificate/utility bill? It seems to me that the test is just a required formality now and we have essentially passed the most difficult part ? I would have expected that if they did not want to give me the "ministerial discretion", they would have outright just refused the application without even scheduling the citizenship test and waste the embassy personels time.

Question2: Do you guys think I should get and upload a new police clearance certificat ? I've read that sometimes they come back and ask for an updated one and it does take some time to get it. The previous one is 14+ months old now.


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## MinisterialLongshot (Oct 31, 2019)

hazi said:


> P.S. Requested IGIS and FOI, found out my file was untouched for 9 months. Sent an email to HA with the received info a week ago and got online approval on Saturday.


Sorry, what does "HA" mean ? The case officer or the DIBP hotline ?

I guess if I don't hear anything back after a few weeks after sitting the test at the embassy, I need to contact "HA" too and make sure things move along : )

Thanks for sharing your story by the way !


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## Hassali.abdi (Jul 28, 2014)

MinisterialLongshot said:


> hazi said:
> 
> 
> > P.S. Requested IGIS and FOI, found out my file was untouched for 9 months. Sent an email to HA with the received info a week ago and got online approval on Saturday.
> ...


"HA" means Home Affairs. It is no longer "DIBP". Name was changed in 2017.


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## JandE (Jul 17, 2015)

Hassali.abdi said:


> "HA" means Home Affairs. It is no longer "DIBP". Name was changed in 2017.


Did you know, the Department of Home Affairs was first created on the 1 January 1901, but did not deal with Immigration.

After a name change in 1919, when it then dealt with Immigration, it changed back to the Department of Home Affairs name in 1928.

Another 12 name changes between 1927 and 2017, and it is yet again, the Department of Home Affairs (DHA). Six of those names have been in use since 2000.

They should just call it the 'Immigration Department', and stop confusing everyone.


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## Hassali.abdi (Jul 28, 2014)

JandE said:


> Did you know, the Department of Home Affairs was first created on the 1 January 1901, but did not deal with Immigration.
> 
> After a name change in 1919, when it then dealt with Immigration, it changed back to the Department of Home Affairs name in 1928.
> 
> ...


That is tru JanE.

I only remember Department of Immigration and Citizenship (DIAC), Department of Immigration and Boarder Protection (DIBP) and the current one Home Affairs.


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

MinisterialLongshot said:


> Hi all ! : )
> 
> We are at the same step tomberli ! So cool !
> 
> ...


Hi MinisterialLongshot and thanks for the update - its good to see others in a similar situation. Will you also do the test / interview in London?

Yes, I have been told that I will need to bring documents to London, but not yet which ones. The department contacted me "unofficially" a couple of months before the date so I can arrange travel to London (from Europe). They said I'll get an official invite with a list of documents to bring closer to the date.

I was asked in September or so to get my RRV renewed (even though it was still valid) so they can process the citizenship application further. I also suspect that the "ministerial discretion" has essentially passed and the rest is not just formalities.
I also had to provide a new (overseas) police check since the olf one was 20 months old. They didn't want an Australian one, even though I have been in and out of the country. Curious to see what happens next, my test is on 18th December.


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## MinisterialLongshot (Oct 31, 2019)

tomberli said:


> Hi MinisterialLongshot and thanks for the update - its good to see others in a similar situation. Will you also do the test / interview in London?
> 
> Yes, I have been told that I will need to bring documents to London, but not yet which ones. The department contacted me "unofficially" a couple of months before the date so I can arrange travel to London (from Europe). They said I'll get an official invite with a list of documents to bring closer to the date.
> 
> ...


They can actually ask the AU federal police themselves so people applying from inside the country that have lived the last 5 years in AU do not need to supply any police certificate. I think.

I actually got the invite from the embassy first and it was more or less a copy/paste e-mail about scheduling a date of my choosing and making sure to bring the identity documents.

Then a day later I got a more personal e-mail from Sydney about making sure the RRV did not expire.

I already went and requested another overseas police certificate yesterday, it takes a few weeks to arrive and I want my file to be 100% complete and up to date when the test results are added.

I haven't yet decided if I should upload it before they ask or keep it as dry powder : ) The current one is "only" 14 months old, not 20 like yours was.

I'm on a different continent, not Europe.

If I were you, I would contact the embassy directly 2 weeks before the test in case you have not heard anything directly from them before then. They told me that any appointments here need to be scheduled 2 weeks in advance, maybe the rules over there are different. I'm sure you are OK though, you have a date, it's just that you need to know which documents they want.

From other threads and this one, it seems that cases can become sort of "dormant" after passing the test and a little nudge (FOI request or simply e-mail) may push it all the way across the finishing line.

In case the embassy has a computerized test system (which I assume/hope that they do), I would think the results gets uploaded almost immediately to DIAC/HA/DIBP and then the case is complete for final approval.

My test is 2 weeks before yours so I'll update as things move along.


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

MinisterialLongshot said:


> I actually got the invite from the embassy first and it was more or less a copy/paste e-mail about scheduling a date of my choosing and making sure to bring the identity documents.
> 
> Then a day later I got a more personal e-mail from Sydney about making sure the RRV did not expire.


Same for me. I got an email from an embassy staffer - clearly not an automated one. They then told me that I should update the RRV. Do you remember when you got contacted by the embassy? What I found interesting was that it was the SAME DAY that the ABC and various media reported on the case of the Tamil family where the minister refused to intervene and grant his discretion. The same morning I woke up that the ABC push update and my email from the embassy after 18 months or so. Maybe my view is abit too simplistic, but it does seem like the minister actually sat down at his desk to tackle a large proportion of "complicated" cases and decided to sign some but not others...



MinisterialLongshot said:


> In case the embassy has a computerized test system (which I assume/hope that they do), I would think the results gets uploaded almost immediately to DIAC/HA/DIBP and then the case is complete for final approval.
> 
> My test is 2 weeks before yours so I'll update as things move along.


I0m kind of expecting that things shouldn't drag out too much longer after this, since I'm already beyond their own published guidelines. So hopefully there is some system to alert them to this and process the last buts quickly. 
They already told me that the London embassy would do the test computerised. Apparently they handle ALL citizenship manners for all of Europe.

I'd be curious to get an update after your test!


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## MinisterialLongshot (Oct 31, 2019)

tomberli said:


> I'd be curious to get an update after your test!


Will do.

I got my first response e-mail (from the embassy) about 1 month ago and so I am still sort of within the timelines (14 month to response).

I read somewhere that the minister actually delegates the "power of discretion" to the department, that's why they have published internal guidelines. There is a special "overseas" department within HA that handles these cases.

I would imagine that the minister himself only gets directly involved in cases where it is ... let's say ... politically beneficial to do so ; )


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## MinisterialLongshot (Oct 31, 2019)

So I've sat the test now.

It is a fairly straightforward affair, first someone checks the documents to verify your identity and then you do the test on a computer.

The staff is lovely and I passed 100% in less than 5 minutes.

This result is then uploaded straight away into your citizenship application so the people in Australia can take it further.

It was one of the larger embassies yet apparently they only do about 12-20 of these per year.

I was told the embassy typically does ceremonies twice per year but unofficially they can arrange it anytime in case you have compelling reasons (need it faster for travel for example). They do not advertise this ...

Also, the embassy cannot help with getting the final approval from the department of home affairs however I was told in case I did not hear back for a few months they could send an internal "nudge nudge" e-mail on my behalf via their internal systems to get things moving along. But of course there are no promises on timelines.

Now I have to wait for the final approval before the ceremony can be scheduled.


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

MinisterialLongshot said:


> So I've sat the test now.
> 
> It is a fairly straightforward affair, first someone checks the documents to verify your identity and then you do the test on a computer.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update. I was wondering how often they have cases like ours. I'll be flying to London for my test tomorrow too. Have you heard anything more about the process of your application since?



MinisterialLongshot said:


> I was told the embassy typically does ceremonies twice per year but unofficially they can arrange it anytime in case you have compelling reasons (need it faster for travel for example). They do not advertise this ...
> 
> Now I have to wait for the final approval before the ceremony can be scheduled.


Hm, so you can have the ceremony at the embassy also in that case. We'll be flying to Australia next year, so it would be nice to do it down there - but its good to know that they can do it in embassies also.


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## MinisterialLongshot (Oct 31, 2019)

Hi,

Have fun in London! hope the weather is alright.

No, I have not heard anything back. I'll give it a few more weeks then start chasing it up.

I've read about people starting the application offshore and then onshoring it to do the test and/or ceremony however this must be arranged by the HA. The onshore and offshore are different pipelines and are handled by different departments within HA.

I suppose after the test or after being approved you could e-mail the Overseas Citizenship Unit or your Case Officer to arrange this.

It all depends when you are planning to go back to Australia.

What many do not know is this : It is possible to do the ceremony at the embassy and then immediately apply for a passport, in order to avoid having to go to the embassy twice.


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

MinisterialLongshot said:


> Hi,
> 
> Have fun in London! hope the weather is alright.


Thank you - Windy, cold and overcast it was, but no rain. So quite good for London I guess.

Yeah, was kind of bizarre, flying across the continent in order to complete a test that literally took me about 7mins (full points). Not the most carbon friendly process. There was three of us - Sweden, Switzerland and UK. Apparently they test around 5 to 10 people a month. Oh and also no-one ever failed yet (with this officer in the last two years).

At least I manged to get a few pieces of information out of them - much easier that from the department where you never get any update ever.

- If you're applying under Ministerial Discretion, the citizenship test is that lest assessment step. Assuming you pass that, it is now just a formality to be invited to the next ceremony.

- They only do ceremonies twice a year in London (and therefore all of Europe). January & September

- It is possible to re-schedule the ceremony to any council in Australia - given enough availability and time. So I'll be looking into that.

- They also said that the results should go to the Department immediately and then show up in my Immi account the same day. This hasn't happened yet however.I'll give them a few days before I stat chasing them up about it.


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## MinisterialLongshot (Oct 31, 2019)

Hi!

Cool!

Sound good, it's just a waiting game now. I've already e-mailed OCU once after the test and no answer.

At the embassy, they told me that the next step is for HA to reach out back to the embassy and then the embassy schedules the ceremony and then they reach out to me. But I hope OCU would also reach out to me directly.

Last time I did not hear anything from the time of lodging to when I was invited to the test. Then I got 2 e-mails on the same day, one from OCU and one from the embassy.

Anyway ... I'm not sure where the results would show up in the immi account ?

My embassy person sort of hinted that there is an internal account system (she said something about putting a note there) so I think that is where the test is recorded but we do not have access to it. Unless we send in a Freedom Of Information request to get a copy I think.

My immi account still just says "received" ...

So I'm not sure that you will be able to see the test results online.

Nevertheless, if you've done it one a computer it's recorded in real time (that's why the website was so slow, it's connected all the way down under : )

I did the test 2 weeks ago and have not heard anything. Of course, next week is Christmas so unless santa himself gets involved I'll hear something early next year maybe ...


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

MinisterialLongshot said:


> Sound good, it's just a waiting game now. I've already e-mailed OCU once after the test and no answer.
> 
> At the embassy, they told me that the next step is for HA to reach out back to the embassy and then the embassy schedules the ceremony and then they reach out to me. But I hope OCU would also reach out to me directly.
> 
> Last time I did not hear anything from the time of lodging to when I was invited to the test. Then I got 2 e-mails on the same day, one from OCU and one from the embassy.


Interestingly the embassy staff told me to get in touch with the council, if I want the ceremony to be re-scheduled. I've already written to them to ask what dates the ceremonies will be at in 2020, but they clearly told me that they get the lists from the department of Home Affairs, so I would have to get in touch with them for a different ceremony date / location. So bascially the info from the embassy already turned out to be incorrect.



MinisterialLongshot said:


> Anyway ... I'm not sure where the results would show up in the immi account ?
> 
> My immi account still just says "received" ...
> So I'm not sure that you will be able to see the test results online.


Hey, no I wasn't trying to suggest that you could see your results online. Mine still says "received" also (with no update in the immi account since 21st January 2018). But I would expect that it would show up as "Approved" at some stage soon. I applied for citizenship for both of my kids (much easier as they got it by descent). In both cases the Immi-account switched from "received" to "approved" before I got an email or heard anything official from them.



MinisterialLongshot said:


> I did the test 2 weeks ago and have not heard anything. Of course, next week is Christmas so unless santa himself gets involved I'll hear something early next year maybe ...


Yeah, realistically I think it will be some time next year before I get an update. I might start hassling them when my timeline clicks over to two years since application in mid January if I haven't got an update until then...


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

MinisterialLongshot said:


> It was one of the larger embassies yet apparently they only do about 12-20 of these per year.
> 
> I was told the embassy typically does ceremonies twice per year but unofficially they can arrange it anytime in case you have compelling reasons (need it faster for travel for example). They do not advertise this


I'm kind of curious as to how many of these cases they get. In London they also said it's about 5 a month - so maybe 60 a year. And thats for all of Europe. Everyone who was there the same day as me was in a similar situation - live in Australia for several years in the past but then moved overseas with an Australian partner (and kids). 
Do you know how many countries / which area was served for citzenship, issues by your embassy?


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## MinisterialLongshot (Oct 31, 2019)

Well unfortunately everyone will just give us the run-around until HA moves forward with the "final approval".

My embassy person made it clear that this is the final step and that there is nothing anyone can do except HA (except unofficially they can send an internal note to try to chase it up on your behalf). I suppose OCU would perhaps tend to pay attention to internal communication from a diplomatic mission. But who knows.

I already e-mailed them once and they went back to silent mode for now he he

Clearly the embassy and the council are just executing orders from HA ("do test", "interview person", "execute a ceremony").

However, if I were you I would eventually e-mail HA and mention that you wish to do the ceremony in Australia. If you're lucky someone will pay attention and it will not go back to the embassy but rather maybe directly to your council of choice.

But that' all details. For now we wait again ...


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## MinisterialLongshot (Oct 31, 2019)

Oh and merry christmas ! : D


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

MinisterialLongshot said:


> However, if I were you I would eventually e-mail HA and mention that you wish to do the ceremony in Australia. If you're lucky someone will pay attention and it will not go back to the embassy but rather maybe directly to your council of choice.
> 
> But that' all details. For now we wait again ...


So, thats exactly what happened today. I had check with Hobart City council and they have a date next year that would suit me well. I then wrote to OCU to see if I could have my ceremony in Tasmania rather than London. Initially, I had not heard anything back (but then again it was the Christmas / New Year period). This week I put in an official complaint (Here) since it's been officially two years since I applied. Within less than 6h I had a reply, telling me I need to provide a Tasmanian Address if I want to have the ceremony in Hobart. Once I provided that, my account ticked over to "Approved" this morning, after two years of no update. Hooray!


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## MinisterialLongshot (Oct 31, 2019)

Very nice ! Congratulations

I was cutting some onion a week before leaving for a trip back to Australia in early Jan and I managed to cut off a piece of my finger. After a few hours, I got an e-mail from OCU about needing yet another police check, which of course requires fingerprints.

So I had to wait until the day we left for the finger to heal and send the fingerprints to the cops, and then wait again until I got back from Australia a few weeks later before I could scan/upload the results.

I did that a week ago on Monday and today when I happened to log into the immi account, the citizenship says "approved" so I am now expecting to hear from the embassy about scheduling the ceremony! It says "Last update" was on Thurdsday so that's probably when they approved it ...

All in all, a good experience with a few bumbs along the way.

Good luck with your life in Australia, I just can't wait !!!!


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

MinisterialLongshot said:


> I was cutting some onion a week before leaving for a trip back to Australia in early Jan and I managed to cut off a piece of my finger. After a few hours, I got an e-mail from OCU about needing yet another police check, which of course requires fingerprints.
> 
> So I had to wait until the day we left for the finger to heal and send the fingerprints to the cops, and then wait again until I got back from Australia a few weeks later before I could scan/upload the results.


Oh wow, what a ridiculous coincidence! It's quite funny in hindsight, but I'm sure it would have been pretty annoying at the time.



MinisterialLongshot said:


> I did that a week ago on Monday and today when I happened to log into the immi account, the citizenship says "approved" so I am now expecting to hear from the embassy about scheduling the ceremony! It says "Last update" was on Thursday so that's probably when they approved it ...


I got my letter 14 days after the Immi-System ticked to "approved". The letter was a bit of a let-down though because they didn't actually give me a date for the ceremony, they just sent their congratulations and let me know that I will have to sit a ceremony within the next 12 months and that i'd hear from them more closer to the scheduled ceremony. So I still don't have anything official, other than a confirmation that it's all gone through.

Congratulations on the whole process - it's quite a relief when it's finally approved, isn't it! Especially after ovet two years of waiting.


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## AussiePilot (Feb 15, 2020)

Hi everyone!

First post.

I'm Australian and my wife is from PNG. We now have 4 years with my wife on a tourist and then partner visa and just over 12 months with PR. 

We are looking to apply for her citizenship and wondering if everyone just did the ministerial discretion 5 by themselves through the online application or you used an immigration lawyer?

As an airline pilot, I've been following the work around the world and my wife has moved with me wherever I've gone. We started in PNG then Aus , back to PNG, Aus, Poland, Czech Rep, USA, France, Hungary, Romania and now Moldova.

We own a property in Aus (in my name) and both have family in Aus. I will probably have one more job in China before returning to Aus for good.

Thanks!


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

Welcome to the forum AussiePilot.



AussiePilot said:


> We are looking to apply for her citizenship and wondering if everyone just did the ministerial discretion 5 by themselves through the online application or you used an immigration lawyer?


I did it all myself - but then again I quite enjoy searching through regulations and am confident I can interpret it correctly. It's not all too complicated if you know how to read and write well. But I think you do want to put together solid evidence and explain your situation well.



AussiePilot said:


> As an airline pilot, I've been following the work around the world and my wife has moved with me wherever I've gone. We started in PNG then Aus , back to PNG, Aus, Poland, Czech Rep, USA, France, Hungary, Romania and now Moldova.
> 
> We own a property in Aus (in my name) and both have family in Aus. I will probably have one more job in China before returning to Aus for good.


Based on this, I certainly think you've got a good chance. Seems like the kind of situation this exemption was intended for.



AussiePilot said:


> I'm Australian and my wife is from PNG. We now have 4 years with my wife on a tourist and then partner visa and just over 12 months with PR.


However, I don't think she qualifies yet. read the clause carefully:

_5. If you are the spouse or de facto partner of an Australian citizen, or surviving spouse or de facto partner of an Australian citizen at the time you make your application, and *you spent time outside Australia as a permanent resident *in the 4 years immediately before making your application, you may treat those periods of absence as time in Australia if, during each period of absence:
• you were the spouse or de facto partner of that Australian citizen, and
• they were an Australian citizen, and
• you maintained a close and continuing association with Australia._

I'm pretty sure this implies, that the "being outside of Australia" exemption is only applied to permanent residents. Or in other words, all time on tourist visas only counts if you are physically in Australia. So I'm fairly confident she's only eligible for citizenship 4 years after the 309 provisional visa was converted to a 100 permanent visa. It was the same for me, i put in my application 4 years after receiving the 100 permanent migrant visa.


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## AussiePilot (Feb 15, 2020)

Hi tomberli, thanks for that!

Hmm, I'll have to look further into the 4 years if it's only whilst on permanent residency or not.

Cheers,

Scott


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## MinisterialLongshot (Oct 31, 2019)

Well, my ceremony at the embassy got cancelled back in March so I just decided to wait and see.

Last week I was suddenly invited to a video ceremony and now I have finally become citizen after 20+ months. The immi account ticked over from "approved" to "finalised".

Apparently they do remote ceremonies for offshore applicants!

Now I just need to wait for the certificate in the mail so I can apply for the passport and then enter Australia as a citizen for the first time.

A new life begins !


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

Oh wow, congratulations!

I'm in a similar situation. My march ceremony got the corona treatment and I haven't heard much since. I sent an email to home affairs regarding virtual ceremonies and I got the following answer this wednesday (!)



Email from Home Affairs said:


> Due to these measures, at this stage we can only accommodate virtual ceremonies for clients who are currently in Australia. We are hoping that in the future it will become possible to include approved clients who are outside Australia, however there is currently no indication as to when this may occur.


Can you please confirm, that you had your online-ceremony while overseas? In that case I will definitely need to get in touch with Home Affairs again.


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## MinisterialLongshot (Oct 31, 2019)

tomberli said:


> Oh wow, congratulations!
> 
> I'm in a similar situation. My march ceremony got the corona treatment and I haven't heard much since. I sent an email to home affairs regarding virtual ceremonies and I got the following answer this wednesday (!)


Thanks, it feels amazing but honestly completely unreal since I it happened so fast and I have no physical proof and we will only move to Australia in a few months ... Passport is the next step now.

Oh OK I thought you were doing yours in Tasmania ?



tomberli said:


> Can you please confirm, that you had your online-ceremony while overseas? In that case I will definitely need to get in touch with Home Affairs again.


Yes, I am still outside Australia and I did the video ceremony across the world with a presiding officer in Sydney.

The video quality was shockingly good (I am also glad that I spent some time double-checking my video camera, the gain on my microphone as well as making sure that I downloaded the webex software that they recommend as well as make sure that I could sign to a webex account that I created with the same e-mail as the invite was sent to).

The only "hiccup" was that they wanted to see a letter/bill with my current address, which I was not prepared for. So make sure you have that !

It was OCU that reached out to me out of the blue (I come from a country where people wait in line, perhaps too patiently!), then virtual.ceremony.NSW sent the actual video invite.

When I replied to the invite to confirm, I also got an automated reply from virtual.ceremony.NSW saying that video ceremonies are only available to applicants inside Australia.

So obviously this must be something fairly new and I think you have to set it up via OCU.

Make sure to mention your current location + timezone clearly in every e-mail until you get the invite, I did this at first, then sent a follow-up e-mail without my location/timezone and then woke up to a reply from OCU with a question about my current timezone. The next round I woke up with the actual invite for later the same day.

I've noticed that OCU tends to only reply to e-mail sent during Australian business hours (so after 09:00 Sydney time).

The presiding officer could only tell me that the certificate may take a few months to arrive, and I have not received any tracking number.

I'll send you a private message with some more details.


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

MinisterialLongshot said:


> Oh OK I thought you were doing yours in Tasmania ?


Yeah, that's what I though too. But we've got a baby and a toddler in tow and getting to Tasmania at the moment would involve 2x two weeks Quarantine, if rules were interpreted strictly (on arrival in Australia and when going to Tassie). After being in lockdown with kids for several weeks in a spacious house with a garden, I can't imagine doing so in a government-approved hotel chamber. So basically there's no way we're going to travel south before they lift restrictions. Apart from the fact that it's probably not a good idea to hop on any plane right now.



MinisterialLongshot said:


> Yes, I am still outside Australia and I did the video ceremony across the world with a presiding officer in Sydney.
> 
> The only "hiccup" was that they wanted to see a letter/bill with my current address, which I was not prepared for. So make sure you have that !
> 
> ...


Hm, strange that. Must be a very recent development then! Ah well, good news for us - I guess I'll have to shoot them another email and see what happens. It might even be different from state to state. The Tasmanians pointed out to me that the councils were going to have actual ceremonies again soon.

Thanks for the update anyway, good to hear that things are moving along!


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## Kai_lk (Jun 28, 2017)

Hi Tomberli,
Glad to find this post, best of luck for your ceremony 
I lived in Australia with my Aussie husband from January 2018 to October 2019, after which we moved to london in December 2019, we weren’t sure about for how long we will be away but were planning to visit Australia often as his whole family are in Australia, however now it became rather impossible since the outbreak of covid -19 (travel restrictions and quarantine etc) and we are unsure about when will we be able to visit Australia again in the foreseeable future (unless the travel ban to exit Aus being lifted), do you think I stand a chance to apply for the ministerial discretion when the time comes for citizenship? And if so, should I apply online? Or to London embassy directly? 
Thanks tons for your help.


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## Kai_lk (Jun 28, 2017)

Hi Tomberli, Glad to find this post, best of luck for your ceremony I lived in Australia with my Aussie husband from January 2018 to October 2019, after which we moved to london in December 2019, we weren't sure about for how long we will be away but were planning to visit Australia often as his whole family are in Australia, however now it became rather impossible since the outbreak of covid -19 (travel restrictions and quarantine etc) and we are unsure about when will we be able to visit Australia again in the foreseeable future (unless the travel ban to exit Aus being lifted), do you think I stand a chance to apply for the ministerial discretion when the time comes for citizenship? And if so, should I apply online? Or to London embassy directly? Thanks tons for your help.


tomberli said:


> MinisterialLongshot said:
> 
> 
> > Oh OK I thought you were doing yours in Tasmania ?
> ...


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

So, after quite a bit of a wait, I got to have my Online Citizenship ceremony today though the London office and can officially call myself an Australian Citizen now. Wohoo!

The whole experience was rather strange. I got contacted by the High Commission in London back in June and given an invite for a ceremony in September. They were happy to bring it forward by a month as the September date may not have given me enough time to get a passport by Christmas.

Yeah, so apparently it takes 8 to 12 weeks for my Citizenship Certificate to arrive and only then can I apply for an Australian Passport, which may take another 4 to 6 weeks. In case anyone is wondering: One cannot travel to Australia on a foreign passport if you are a citizen as all my visas are now void and no visas can be issued to citizens. So in fact it has now temporarily gotten harder for me to get to Australia. (Not that it's a particularly good time to travel right now anyway...)


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## MinisterialLongshot (Oct 31, 2019)

Nice!

That's great news, you are over the hurdle now !

And welcome to the rather exclusive club of offshore citizens that do not possess any physical proof whatsoever ; )

Did it really happen or was it just a dream ?

I have been wating 8 weeks for the certificate now, and I asked the officer during the ceremony if I could be given a tracking number but that was not possible. He did say that in case I haven't gotten it in 3 months, then reach out to OCU.

But you can actually travel to Australia without your AU passport. It's just a bit of a hassle.

First of all the online VEVO visa check for your old passport will now say "citizen". Before it said permanent resident.

And the airline staff can always call a gouvernment office and double-check before issuing boarding passes. This happened to me once when I had a new passport that was not automatically recognized (yes, even though I did submit the correct form to update months ahead).

And of course the embassy can issue an emergency one-time passport.

But yeah, I am also waiting for the certificate and on top of that I cannot trust the local postal service.

I've had tracking numbers before and then had to go down to the local distribution center and have them dig up the letter since they did not deliver it to the letter box for a few weeks (they had to "look for it" and the eventually "found it" so god knows what would have happened if I did not know 100% where it was ... now I have no tracking number at all so ...).

Anyway ... I am planning on traveling there in January so I've got plenty of time still but unfortunately it looks like the quarantine rules will be in place until at least the end of the year.


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

Hi Kai_lk. 
Sorry, I only just found this post. Don't check this too regularly.



Kai_lk said:


> Hi Tomberli,
> I lived in Australia with my Aussie husband from January 2018 to October 2019, after which we moved to london in December 2019, we weren't sure about for how long we will be away but were planning to visit Australia often as his whole family are in Australia, however now it became rather impossible since the outbreak of covid -19 (travel restrictions and quarantine etc) and we are unsure about when will we be able to visit Australia again in the foreseeable future (unless the travel ban to exit Aus being lifted), do you think I stand a chance to apply for the ministerial discretion when the time comes for citizenship? And if so, should I apply online? Or to London embassy directly?
> Thanks tons for your help.


Hard to say to be honest, there are very few references for comparison. If you're going to apply, go directly online. The Embassy will simply advise you to do the same I'm pretty sure. Am I correct in the assumption that you are on a permanent residency visa already? If not, then that would definitely have to be the first (and more complicated) step. As far as I know, only permanent visas can apply for citizenship.

If you are a permanent resident, then keep in mind the following:
- Normally, you can apply for citizenship after having lived in the county for at least four years continuously, at least one year of which as a PR. _-> This does not appear to be the case for you_ 
- Under ministerial discretion, the residence condition cannot be change, but "time spent outside of Australia" may be treated as "in Australia" as long as you lived together with an Australian citizen and maintained a "strong an ongoing relationship" with Australia. However, this applies only to the time you were on a permanent visa

So de facto this means: 
- If you don't fulfill the normal residency period, you can apply for citizenship * four years after having your Permanent Residency* granted.
- You have to be able to prove, that you lived with your husband for this entire time
- You have to be able to prove, that you maintained a "strong and ongoing relationship with Australia". This is obviously a fairly lose clause and its hard to say where they draw the line. In our case, we have bank accounts, family, friends, university degrees, regular visits and our own wedding ceremony tying us to Australia. Obviously that was enough, but as said, i'm not sure how much (or how little) is needed to satisfy them. In my case, no-one ever questioned any of the evidence or demanded any clarification, it just took a long time. My interpretation is, that this was because of the circumstances, rather then the provided evidence though.

Feel free to PM me if you have more specific questions.


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## pollyhoprn (Sep 20, 2020)

*ministerial discretion*

I am an Australian citizen since 1995, I got married with my wife in 2003. I bought an apartment under my name in 2017 and pay vacant property tax since then, we bought a slot of land this year under joint ownership. My wife visited Australia for a few times since we got married and stayed for a couple of days each time. We have two children, one is 16, the other is 13, both are aussie citizen. My wife just applied for citizenship under ministerial discretion. What is the chance of approval ?


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## pollyhoprn (Sep 20, 2020)

*ministerial discretion*

I am an Australian citizen since 1995, I got married with my wife in 2003. I bought an apartment under my name in 2017 and pay vacant property tax since then, we bought a slot of land this year under joint ownership. My wife visited Australia for a few times since we got married and stayed for a couple of days each time. We have two children, one is 16, the other is 13, both are aussie citizen. My wife just applied for citizenship under ministerial discretion. What is the chance of approval ?


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## MinisterialLongshot (Oct 31, 2019)

pollyhoprn said:


> I am an Australian citizen since 1995, I got married with my wife in 2003. I bought an apartment under my name in 2017 and pay vacant property tax since then, we bought a slot of land this year under joint ownership. My wife visited Australia for a few times since we got married and stayed for a couple of days each time. We have two children, one is 16, the other is 13, both are aussie citizen. My wife just applied for citizenship under ministerial discretion. What is the chance of approval ?


If she is a PR holder then there is a chance at least and the children are a strong factor.

But, unfortunately, because your wife has spent less than 1 year in AU in the past 5 years however, she stands a much lower chance.

So don't count on it.

What she could do is re-apply once in Australia, after one year.


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## Hsm123 (May 10, 2021)

tomberli said:


> So, after quite a bit of a wait, I got to have my Online Citizenship ceremony today though the London office and can officially call myself an Australian Citizen now. Wohoo!
> 
> The whole experience was rather strange. I got contacted by the High Commission in London back in June and given an invite for a ceremony in September. They were happy to bring it forward by a month as the September date may not have given me enough time to get a passport by Christmas.
> 
> Yeah, so apparently it takes 8 to 12 weeks for my Citizenship Certificate to arrive and only then can I apply for an Australian Passport, which may take another 4 to 6 weeks. In case anyone is wondering: One cannot travel to Australia on a foreign passport if you are a citizen as all my visas are now void and no visas can be issued to citizens. So in fact it has now temporarily gotten harder for me to get to Australia. (Not that it's a particularly good time to travel right now anyway...)


Hi
Would you mind providing more information how you requested the ceremony offshore? What reasons were accepted? Do you have an email address you used?


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

Hsm123 said:


> Hi
> Would you mind providing more information how you requested the ceremony offshore? What reasons were accepted? Do you have an email address you used?


Simple answer is that you can't request it as far as I know. I wanted to travel to Hobart for it initially. I think it may have also been an option to do it at the high commission in London. Due to COVID and all the travel restrictions, they switched to online ceremonies for all those who couldn't make it into the country. This was done via the London High commission, where I would have otherwise had my ceremony. I already went there for my citizenship test. 
As far as I know, this was only a temporary solution to deal with the backlog of cases affected by COVID. I don't think they want to establish this as a permanent solution, but you'd have to check with the embassy / High commission yourself.


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## BUNN3S (May 12, 2021)

Hi Tomberli, 

Thanks a ton for all the information you posted here. This is extremely helpful to navigate.

Given what I read I believe our circumstances are fairly identical. I am a non-risk candidate EU citizen. Australian degree, fellow of inst., got a house in Sydney, zero crimes (lol), Aussies kids, etc. I applied from abroad.

I am waiting since around 23 months for a decision since applying for citizenship. Nothing is missing. This waiting time I am hoping is related to that I am outside of the country and as I merely speculate because the citizenship testing was likely stopped with the embassy in London being closed for some time now. They aparently reopened now. Do you or anybody else know whether the embassy in London resumed citizenship testing already? It is not practical these days to travel to Australia for that.

Is there a way to find out whether invitation to citizenship test is imminent meaning approval by homeaffairs internally was given to the applicant for testing? For me I believe the real hurdle is not the citizenship or the ceremony but actually being permitted to be allowed to sit the citizenship test. Based on what I read once you are permitted to sit the test you will almost never be rejected afterwards unless you fail the test or dont go to the ceremony. 

How are the odds to be rejected after 23 months of waiting? Current processing times are 16 months for 90th percentile). I understand cases from abroad might take years long. Yet, is there an indicator of the final decision? Kind of the longer you gotta wait the more likely you dont get rejected to sit the test?

Thanks
BUNN3S


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## tomberli (Feb 13, 2013)

BUNN3S said:


> Hi Tomberli,
> 
> Thanks a ton for all the information you posted here. This is extremely helpful to navigate.
> 
> ...





BUNN3S said:


> Hi Tomberli,
> 
> Thanks a ton for all the information you posted here. This is extremely helpful to navigate.
> 
> ...


Hi Bunn23

As far as I remember they did put a stop on testing and processing at the Embassy at some stage. Not sure when they re-started, but it would have certainly caused some delays and backlogs. The embassies have always done citizenship tests (not all of them, I had to fly to London for it - Geneva, Vienna, Berli all didn't do it). 

I had a chat with the testing officer after my test and she essentially confirmed that after having passed it, there was now essentially nothing in the way of being invited to a citizenship ceremnony. So yes, if you get invited to a test, you've essentially passed all the internal hurdles (and lets face it, if you don't mange to pass that test, then you also woulnd't manage to put together your paperwork or get an Australian degree...)

Do you know Immitracker? Gives some overview of the timelines. I waited 23 months to do a test (Pre-Covid) and then another 9 months for the ceremony (with covid). So I certainly think that with some covid backlogs (and the embassies being busy with stranded Aussies) your waiting time is still in the range of "normal". I essentially heard nothing for 20 months or so and all of a sudden I Was asked to renew my RRV (which expires annually after 5 years) and provide a new police check since the old one was now too old for them. As soon as I had that, things went quickly. So basically they had made their decision and just needed some paperwork. So my guess would be that if you've heard nothing so far, your case is simply sitting somewhere in a pile. A rejection would probably need a few questions or clarifications first.


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## BUNN3S (May 12, 2021)

Hoi Tomberli
Merci vielmals! Thank you very much. This is very helpful. 
Bunn3s


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## BUNN3S (May 12, 2021)

As the UK is still seen as a risk area, and that travellers are required upon arrival to self-isolate for a certain time period that a citizenship testing program can only be restarted once the UK is: a.) not classified as a variant or risk country and b.) does not classify Central Europe as a risk area. So I think only with a herd immunity via vacinations likely achieved in summer, only then can a testing program be reestablished realistically. That is all just a guess who knows what happens.


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## BUNN3S (May 12, 2021)

Still have not heard anything about citizenship testing being reopened in Australian Embassy in London. Does anyone know something?


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