# Politics of Immigration



## Wanderer

A few posters posted on a Visas & Immigration Time Line Thread re their experiences/views of what was happening and that greatly detracted from the intent of that thread.

In keeping with people being able to air happenings/thoughts I've started this thread_ [Out of the Visas & Immigration Section]_ so as such posts can be where they belong and as a service, [possibly temporary] I'll make it a sticky.

I'll put a redirecting comment post on the Time Line Thread too.
Hopefully my redirection skill is appropriate and not all threads will be redirected as some may have been deleted! but drift is there.


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## Wanderer

*Cannot redirect individual posts and so have done a cut and paste [twice] to get a sequence of posts:*
*And It's In three bites Starting With*

*By Amandy 15 November 2009*
For those who don't remember me, this is my story (and my husbands). 
We are still waiting, since 30th June 2009. I contact the embassy all the time, they say processing time is 6-9months. But why the hell is everyone on here getting it in less time??

There is nothing wrong with our application - apparently we are awaiting security checks. ? geez
Quote: 
Originally Posted by Amandy ￼
My husband visa is taking ages, he is Bangladeshi and I am Australian. We are both in Bangladesh whilst this visa process takes it's time!

Date of application: 30th June 2009

Nationality: Bangladeshi

Visa type: Spouse Visa Provisional Subclass 309

Offshore/onshore: Offshore (Bangladesh)

Medicals submitted: Yes (2 weeks after application)

Police check submitted: Yes (With application)

Date CO assigned: Did not get informed formally. First email received (on 15th July 2009) from CO saying I had an interview on 12th August 2009)

Interview: 12th August 2009 - where the CO asked some really intrusive and horrible questions.

Date visa granted: Awaiting . . .

Why is it that people from USA, UK, Ireland, all the anglo countries seem to get their visas in less than 2 months.. but no, not my husband, why, something against black people. Why are people so racist.

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*By ElKitten 17 November*
Amandy-- i totally understand your frustration, it does suck a lot. I just wanted to say though, that USA, Canada, and a few european countries get their Visa's more quickley because they are low risk countries, which seems to be defined as the countries that have recciprical agreements with Australian government. Agreements such as these would allow for faster information sharing hence an easier/shorter application process. I don't think it is anything against black people.

Good luck to you and i really hope you hear something back soon! 
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*By ElKitten 06 December*
^Definitly!

It's the reciprocal agreement thing--many countries, including many countries populated by "white" people do not have a recciprical agreement with australia. These are the countries where you cannot get an ETA. It has to do with information sharing and other political stuff--not colour of skin. May I kindly mention that Brunei, Malaysia, and Singapore are on these lists, as is the U.S and Canada--all of which have many "black" citizens. I know many aussie PR's and even a citizen who is from Pakistan. A friend of mine from the Ukraine has been waiting god knows how long to get her PR...she is white but because she is from a HR country, it takes ages...

It's not about skin colour its about information--if there is no reciprocal agreement then it is hard for governments to know for sure who the applicant is and their history.

Besides, there is one HR couple on here that got their Visa quicker than any of the recent LR people.....yeah it sucks, but it just depends. 
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*By ElKitten 07 December*
You know, I agree with you in some ways that yes muslim people do get the raw end of the deal sometimes because of the whole terrorism thing. And yes, it may very well impact international relations and hence impact what countries end up being "High Risk." It sucks in a major way but the people who are lucky enough to be "Low Risk" are just that--lucky. My being Canadian and Sazzle being british does make the process faster, but it hardly means that we can just give them anything and they will go "yep, come on in!!"

Yes australia does have the "convict" history but of course the policies will be different now. Australia is now a country that has to regulate its borders and from my experience, indeed it is the thoughest country to get into.

I just wanted to mention also that Brunei is a LR country, a country which is primarily muslim. Not all HR countries are muslim either and I don't think that there is anywhere in the application that asks you to nominate your religion (is there?). There are plenty of Catholics and other religions in muslim countries too...

I hope this isn't coming across as an attack, it isn't meant to be, I'm just trying to discuss the point. I do genuinly feel bad that HR people have to wait so long--how frustrating when you know that your partner/spouse is a good person that they have to be so scruitinized! I do hope you hear something very soon and that you'll be the next person celebrating on this board! 
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*By Amandy 07 December*
Quote: 
Originally Posted by elkitten ￼
You know, I agree with you in some ways that yes muslim people do get the raw end of the deal sometimes because of the whole terrorism thing. And yes, it may very well impact international relations and hence impact what countries end up being "High Risk." It sucks in a major way but the people who are lucky enough to be "Low Risk" are just that--lucky. My being Canadian and Sazzle being british does make the process faster, but it hardly means that we can just give them anything and they will go "yep, come on in!!"

Yes australia does have the "convict" history but of course the policies will be different now. Australia is now a country that has to regulate its borders and from my experience, indeed it is the thoughest country to get into.

I just wanted to mention also that Brunei is a LR country, a country which is primarily muslim. Not all HR countries are muslim either and I don't think that there is anywhere in the application that asks you to nominate your religion (is there?). There are plenty of Catholics and other religions in muslim countries too...

I hope this isn't coming across as an attack, it isn't meant to be, I'm just trying to discuss the point. I do genuinly feel bad that HR people have to wait so long--how frustrating when you know that your partner/spouse is a good person that they have to be so scruitinized! I do hope you hear something very soon and that you'll be the next person celebrating on this board!

We had our interview about 20 days after our application - they loved our pictures we attached a whole album of about 100 pictures, they knew our relationship is genuine and they told us that. They didn't ask us any questions relating to our sex life or anything because they know we are genuine. 
The thing they said is that he doesn't satisfy the character requirements. And all these security checks had to be done and are still in process. The issue was - o.k perhaps you don't have to nominate your religion, but you do know that Muslim people have unique names that are only for muslim people, and myself - i wear the islamic headscarf - i am not saying that this is the only reason and it's an attack on us, no. It's that because he and I are muslim, there has to be huge security checks, just in case he is a terrorist. I think it's alright, for people with any sort of history - but for my husband, the most innocent thing in this world - he is kinda getting a bit depressed about it, as in, how can they think bad things about him when he is a good person. He does charity work and is the president of a social welfare organisation, his father is a retired navy commando who fought for their country's rights and liberation. It's hard to fathom that people can think bad things about him. BUt of course, he has a muslim name, they need to check him. Even if it does take ages. . . 
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## Wanderer

*By Elkitten 07 December*
That really sucks--you would think that other evidence of being of good character like you said, charity work and so forth, would speed up the process. I thought of what you said about the name too after I wrote my last comment--of course, its a bit obvious when it comes down names what religion you are in your case.

Please tell your husband not to loose hope. I know it is very upsetting and I can't imagine the anxiety that comes with all of this. If it helps at all, there was another girl here who wrote about her relationship and she got lucky with a character check thing as it was still valid from something else (i think?) and had taken nearly a year to obtain. The reason it takes so long could be innocent, stupid, but innocent--they are probably just waiting on paperwork from an agency that takes ages. I had a look the other day to see how long it would take to processs an application for my BF to be my defacto in canada..it would take a whole year if he applied offshore!

All of that to say yes it is so unfair, and yes it sucks really bad, but please try to keep your spirits up and not be angry. I really don't think it has anything to do with your husbands religion, i think its just bureaucracy and lenghty procedures between one government and another that could happen to anyone from a HR country. They need to check him like many, many other people who apply from HR countries..some just get lucky and have it happen more quickley it seems for whatever reason.

Why did they say he didnt meet the character requirements? Were there police checks missing?

I wish you and your husband all the best Amandy, do keep us informed of how you go--December/Jan is your 6 month mark right? Hopefully you get some good news then! 
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*By Amandy 07 December*
Quote: 
Originally Posted by elkitten ￼
That really sucks--you would think that other evidence of being of good character like you said, charity work and so forth, would speed up the process. I thought of what you said about the name too after I wrote my last comment--of course, its a bit obvious when it comes down names what religion you are in your case.

Please tell your husband not to loose hope. I know it is very upsetting and I can't imagine the anxiety that comes with all of this. If it helps at all, there was another girl here who wrote about her relationship and she got lucky with a character check thing as it was still valid from something else (i think?) and had taken nearly a year to obtain. The reason it takes so long could be innocent, stupid, but innocent--they are probably just waiting on paperwork from an agency that takes ages. I had a look the other day to see how long it would take to processs an application for my BF to be my defacto in canada..it would take a whole year if he applied offshore!

All of that to say yes it is so unfair, and yes it sucks really bad, but please try to keep your spirits up and not be angry. I really don't think it has anything to do with your husbands religion, i think its just bureaucracy and lenghty procedures between one government and another that could happen to anyone from a HR country. They need to check him like many, many other people who apply from HR countries..some just get lucky and have it happen more quickley it seems for whatever reason.

Why did they say he didnt meet the character requirements? Were there police checks missing?

I wish you and your husband all the best Amandy, do keep us informed of how you go--December/Jan is your 6 month mark right? Hopefully you get some good news then!

December 30th is our 6 months. And our one year wedding anniversary is in January - and i don't know where to plan our anniversary. 
There was nothing missing, police checks were there, that other character requirement paper. They said they are doing security checks with other agencies. Which takes time understandably. But a person from a Low Risk country can also be a terrorist, and it would take long to do the security checks for them too, but they don't do them! People are getting their visa in less than 2 months. So it definitely is a muslim thing. 
Are there any muslims here that can prove me wrong ??? One girl on here has a muslim partner, and they have been waiting for 2 years!!!
We try not to take it personally, but it doesn't explain anything if we don't take it personally - Seriously, a person from a low risk country, why don't they need security checks, but the muslim men do? It's a fact and we all know it, just no one wants to say it.
Frankly, i absolutely love living in bangladesh, in a muslim country. I am australian-born and bred, but bangladesh is a better place with regard to racism and islamophobia. I get treated like a human being, whereas in my own country i get treated like shit because i wear the islamic headscarf. 
Part of me is hoping he doesn't get the visa - life is good in Bangladesh for muslims. Life for muslims in Australia (no matter how australian you really are) is really tough and shit.
For all those muslims wanting to go to Australia - the land of opportunities. I advise you not to - you will be spat on, looked at funny, refused many jobs, be made invisible, get picked on by police, charged for no reason, if your a girl, ur headscarf will be ripped off - be careful. 
If your not muslim - welcome - you will fit right in.
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*By Elkitten 08 December *
Low risk country people do get the security checks--it is just a lot faster because they have a more efficient system of information sharing. That is why only people from low risk countries can get an ETA--they put our names in the system and whammo all the information they need about us from our home government and other agencies is there. LR country people also have to get police certs and so on that can take ages-- I needed 5 of them and each took a month to get.

Again, I don't see how it could be a muslim thing as people from Brunei who are predomenantly muslim are considered low risk and hence would not need to extensive checks and could easily be approved in 2 months or less.

People who are not muslim from HR countries also have to go through the extensive security checks. There is even a low risk country person on here who has had to do a form 80 etc.

See I don't think i'm alone when I say that I wouldn't never treat a muslim person any differently that any other person. If you have been treated that way, i'm sorry to hear that and no wonder you are angry.

Some people are getting their visa in less than two months, some on the spot even... it took me 4 months because of character checks... I know that doesnt compare to how long you have been waiting but all I am saying is that it takes a differnent amount of time for each individual case.

I hope you hear someting soon!
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*By Ameristralian 08 December *
Quote: 
Originally Posted by Amandy ￼
You can't let anyone and everyone into a country?? They brought convicts and criminals to Australia and NOW they are scanning everyone who comes in. 
And you are right, it is not about black or white, there are many people from different colours and cultures going to Australia - it's about something else. And no one here would understand the international politics of this issue, so i will not mention it. 
Heck, it's about terrorism - and being a Muslim. We all know that, so do the immigration department. I've seen their 'Muslim Protocol' - if that's not racist then i don't know what is!

I am not a racist, but I agree with them thoroughly checking people. Not just muslims, but americans, canadians, whoever. Times have changed, and I am glad to be moving somewhere where they are seriously checking the people they let in. I hope the best for the both of you, but I think you shouldn't take it so personally. 
[Edited]
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## Wanderer

*By haruko 08 December*
Quote: 
Originally Posted by Amandy ￼
For all those muslims wanting to go to Australia - the land of opportunities. I advise you not to - you will be spat on, looked at funny, refused many jobs, be made invisible, get picked on by police, charged for no reason, if your a girl, ur headscarf will be ripped off - be careful. 
If your not muslim - welcome - you will fit right in.

I wish you all the best with your husband application, but im wondering... if you dont like australia, why do you want to live there? if you think life is shit there and they dont respect your religion, etc... 
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*By Amandy 08 December*Quote: 
Originally Posted by haruko ￼
I wish you all the best with your husband application, but im wondering... if you dont like australia, why do you want to live there? if you think life is shit there and they dont respect your religion, etc...

Because my family is there, my career that i love so much is there, my friends, the food i grew up with and love - ￼
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*By haruko 08 December*
well, those are evidently good reasons!
again, good luck with your application, im sure that if they wanted to deny it they wouldve done already rather than make you wait for so long! 
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*By Sazzlewilson 12 December*
At the end of the day, it's going to take as long as it takes, and all your complaining and insisting that it is because he is muslim won't make it any quicker! I understand very well the way that muslims are treated, I used to live in a muslim country. No, not every muslim is a terrorist, but you have to understand that extremists do exist, and Australia (despite it's origins of being where all the convicts were sent, in order to populate the place), like any other country, probably doesn't really want terrorists living here. Extremists exist in every religion, and you don't even need a religion to be an extremist! However Elkitten is correct, it's about sharing information between governments that makes it faster in some instances. If you want to immigrate somewhere you have to go through checks, that's just how it is, otherwise everywhere would be as over populated as the UK (who are now slowing down the number of people they allow in), and we'd all be living in tiny houses built on top of eachother....not quite the Australia I know. And besides, 6 months is the "standard" processing time, and that is only a suggestion. I have friends here who are applying for residency and did so at the same time as me, they are in a different state though, and it's taking a lot longer, they are asking for more evidence, and they have been together for more than 4 years. If you ask me, there is a certain degree of luck in it as well, which CO you get assigned, if it's a good day for them, what embassy you go to etc. 
Anyway, Amandy, I hope you hear some good news soon! 
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## Amandy

Yeah I finally found it. And i have so much to say regarding this. 
1. You all need to take your head out of the cloud and come to reality. High Risk countries - what are they, people who are likely to overstay their visa, i've done my research, people who overstayed their visa most were from USA, UK and China (Managing the Border: Immigration Compliance, CANBERRA). So don't give me this low high risk crap, it's all bullshit and DIAC are fooling you.

2. The entire world is against Muslim integration into Western Countries. Everyone in this forum (who does NOT have a MUSLIM partner/spouse) got their visa within accepted timeframes, very quickly indeed (on the spot, a few days, weeks, MAX 2 months). Someone said what about the high influx of people from Muslim countries into Australia - immigrating legally and quickly - these people are the minority of NON-MUSLIMS of that Muslim country.

3. The Director of Australian National Security HIMSELF wrote something about 'limiting' the amount of muslims who enter Australia.

4. Jewish Expert in Australia, Raphael Israeli wrote and is activity lobbying for the government to 'Limit Muslims Immigration'.

So ladies and gentlemen, whoever in previous posts said anything about 'Oh you don't have strong evidence that it's a genuine relationship' and 'You are from a High-risk country and people from those countries overstay their visas in Australia' and 'Maybe you didn't do you paperwork properly' ---- YOU are all lost and need to open your eyes and see what is happening to the greater society. You got your visas, congratulations to you. There was even a guy on here who had a good behaviour bond after DRIVING DRUNK (the active potential to kill innocent lives - putting all drivers and pedestrians at risk) still got his visa renewed. Why? You all know why, drink driving is Australia's value and way of life. That's why. 
So before you judge and think that someone's love my not be genuine or think that the efforts are not as good as yours, think again. It's really the government of a islamophobic country that is ruining our chances at being somewhat happy.

References: 
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/...es/pdf/immigration-policy-conference/jupp.pdf
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/compliance/managing-the-border/pdf/mtb-complete.pdf
Limit Muslim migration, Australia warned - National - smh.com.au
Illegitimis Nil Carborundum » Blog Archive Stop all Muslim Immigration to Australia?
http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Prod/parlment/nswbills.nsf/d2117e6bba4ab3ebca256e68000a0ae...2/3403f44d17a65b21ca256fb2000245c8/$FILE/ATT9RWKB/Religious%20tolerance.pdf (this MP was forced to resign 3 months after suggesting religious tolerance)
IT'S TIME TO STOP MUSLIM IMMIGRATION INTO THE UNITED STATES Bare Naked Islam's Weblog
Terrorism: Getting Worse or Not?
Muslim Terrorist Attack In Mumbai Demands Change to Australia's Immigration System


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## Amandy

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Prod/parlment/nswbills.nsf/d2117e6bba4ab3ebca256e68000a0ae...2/3403f44d17a65b21ca256fb2000245c8/$FILE/ATT9RWKB/Religious%20tolerance.pdf 

copy and paste this to your browser


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## Wanderer

Not that I had contributed previously Amandy and so do not class myself as "all" and though I can understand your angst, I do not agree with your all your views.

Sure there are the HR/LR countries and it's not all about overstayers as elkitten pointed out with


> Low risk country people do get the security checks--it is just a lot faster because they have a more efficient system of information sharing. That is why only people from low risk countries can get an ETA--they put our names in the system and whammo all the information they need about us from our home government and other agencies is there. LR country people also have to get police certs and so on that can take ages-- I needed 5 of them and each took a month to get.


And sure, there're going to be those in many countries, Australia included who have attitudes far from what you can expect of an angel and that can even extend to attitudes of some Muslim men to non muslim women and the way they dress etc.

But that has not stopped many muslim peoples immigrating to Australia.

With the links you have given you may want to question yourself, the reliability you would place on a report by One Nation _[and yes we even get nutters in politics]_ and even some media articles for you'll always have editors/reporters wanting to write something sensationalist in the hope that it sells more newspapers and keeps their advertisers happy.

Have a read of the character test and you'll see that one would fail if they had a conviction serious enough to carry a jail sentence of 12 months or more, that not likely for drink driving in most countries.
You seem to do your own judging very well Amandy with


> Why? You all know why, drink driving is Australia's value and way of life. That's why.


I do not judge and actually admire Anthony Mundine for his comments on terrorism of a very horrendous act and though there are indeed many forms of terrorism, it is not surprising to find that there'll be many who do not think too kindly of muslims because of the association, even though it may be a small %, a bit like drink drivers.
In truth, it is likely that many non muslims, non jews, and many people not involved with religions rarely get involved with religious people in general and how they live their lives.

At the same time, when you have Islamic Clerics making statements that are not taken too well, again it is not surprising that there'll be some people offended and in fact some in the community could be angered.

As to what is done re acceptance in the community, I recall a couple decades ago that a council in Melbourne declared a Women only bathing time for their public baths - Why? - merely because of lobbying by the muslim members of the community despite such public facilities having been funded by all rate payers.
So, yes there are some who may question how well different cultures may exist, not to mention the possibility of Sharia Law support as is occurring in the UK.

And sure, other religions have their Church Laws and some religious groups may even strive to keep misdeeds inhouse but at the end of the day, the Justice system of a country should stand.
Muslims I understand [and correct me if I'm wrong] have a belief of a body of a deceased being laid to rest within certain timeframes and if that is not in accord with a countries Laws, there exists possibility for conflict, and so yes, there are all manner of things that need to be addressed.

Meanwhile, with the processing, you may find that there will be far less in the way of Embassy/Consulate/DIAC staffing in some countries, perhaps even reliance on locals employed and so those aspects can also add to times taken.


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## printo12

*Good*

It is good post


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## melb69aussie

*Opinions vary....*

Having read the post claiming drink driving is accepted in Australia I could not help but post this....I do not see the relevance to that subject in this post. I understand the frustration involved in gaining a visa but such statements seem to highlight an issue regarding character. 
I also find mention of Australia and convicts also irrelevant, although it is true that Australia was a penal colony it has since been populated by people from all walks of life and backgrounds. I am proud of the fact I am Australian and agree that we can afford to be stringent regarding our policies and entrance requirements.
The fact we are so selective contributes to the fact our country is such a popular destination for so many people. 
It is unfortunate that in some cases good people get caught in the screening process and in some cases are refused a visa but that is much better than allowing people of bad character entry into this country.
I have been in a situation in the past where a prospective partner was rejected based on character and have also been involved in a successful spouse visa application. So I understand the frustration but this does not justify previous statements about Australia. If one searches hard enough they can find references both for and against the same subject so to simply post links supporting ones views is not sufficient.


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## fernanb8521

Discrimination? Countries around the world fight and eliminate all the possible threats to their environment and humanity. We have to understand and submit to whatever the processes of entering another territory. This is just a way of preserving their culture, land, resources and the people behind them. Like Australia who ranked third in its economic diversity and the lowest poverty rate around the world, entering this country maybe difficult..


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## Dexter

The politics in this topic is simple - selective immigration. As Australia we have every right to choose whom we want to let in and whom not. Since we are only a 20 million nation we need to be careful especially with countries that could send a large immigration down here which would destabilize economy. This is especially China, India but also Indonesia, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Phillipines etc. Also, we also need to protect our country from potential threats such as terrorists or convicts. This is why country authorities are strict about English, occupation, genuine relationships etc. And whether you like it or not - this is the right way to go.


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## Dr Undies

This is addressed to Amandy. 
I honestly do not understand why somebody who is obviously very bitter toward the Australian way of life...would even contemplate living here....no matter what the reasons given for doing so in light of their resentment. That kind of attitude seems to be one of the core reasons why somebody should look elsewhere to live. We only have one shot at life... if you continually have bitter and angry perceptions of those around you...and you are in that situation by choice....would you not rather live elsewhere? It works both ways. As a PR of over 45 years and now an Oz citizen...I would not want a neighbour living next to me with that mind set. Call me what you like... I do not consider myself racist...whatever that is meant to mean anyway.. as racism crosses all races against all other races. Are we not all part of the human race?? Beside..the last time I looked..Islam is a religion NOT a race. Lose the anger and the chip on your shoulder..and blend in with Australians rather than being so dogmatically attached to the ways of your place of birth. If you were born here, as you claim to be Australian.. I really don't understand your point if you came to Australia by choice... unless like myself.... you came here with your family as a young child. Simply stated... you have the right to leave if you don't like it here.


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## Skydancer

I don't know your story, Dr Undies, nor Amandy's full story, but being forced apart from your spouse would be reason enough to make anyone bitter against the government and society responsible for that.

The fact still is, that some applicants get their visas approved much faster than others, even when their evidence is less compelling than some people from muslim backgrounds who have much stronger applications.

There needs to be an overhaul of the application process around the globe, and more effort to be compassionate towards applicants that are going through lengthy stressful waiting times.

Very interesting thread... thanks, Wanderer for putting it together


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## Wanderer

Hi Skydancer,
Good to see you still popping in and you may have noticed that this thread got put together because of some very pointed posting within another thread in the Visa section which is there for visa queries more so than what Amandy posted but I do not mind people having the opportunity to air their views as long as they are kept civil, and hence the extraction.

Yes, there are people not happy with visa processing and that can be processing of all types, there having been greater backlogs in the skilled visas area than what there has been for family visas and that is also a concern.
But how you could come up with


> even when their evidence is less compelling than some people from muslim backgrounds who have much stronger applications.


Without having full explicit details side by side to compare is beyond me.

To say there needs to be a global overhaul is rather stretching things for whilst regulations are regularly reviewed, processing requires different things to happen and it may seem to some that there needs to be more compassion but when you are dealing with applications numbering 150,000+ a year and there are objectives to be maintained in achieving an appropriate supply of skilled people, the only place for compassion with family stream visas is to have regulations that reflect what is required to be eligible.

You mention people from muslim backgrounds and it is unfortunate for them on two accounts:
1. There are muslim extremists as there can be extremists from other religions or outside of religions and in the case of the muslim extremists that does then mean countries like Australia need to be aware and alert in ensuring proper checks are made for immigration.
2. The extra checking is not always going to be just for people from countries with muslim as a dominant religion but the general rule of thumb being countries that are on the ETA list are indicative of countries that have immigration/intelligence information sharing and/or governance seen to be of an appropriate standard.

I have often said on the forum how visa processing times can vary enormously and there are a number of reasons for that, the current asylum seeker situation is one and with possible development into even greater numbers the impact could be even substantially more.
A recent high court decision on appeals rights could yet have an enormous unknown impact for if the Labor government in having revoked Temporary Protection Visas flew the Please set sail banner for people smugglers, the High Court Decision has surely flown it even higher.
Basically, whilst Australia has always had a well managed refugee program supporting UNHCR efforts, refugees in centres, those ones near starvation _[ not to mention those having died through starvation ]_ were given a chance at life.

What we have now are people with access to money by whatever means saying stuff the refugees and waiting our turn with the UNHCR, the system being adopted is people of some muslim countries can travel to oneanother visa free and so people smugglers in Indonesia have clients and a product, the product being the trip downunder and so do not expect the flow to stop too soon and who knows, it'd not surprise me to see boats from Africa coming across the Indian Ocean too just as boats have come direct from Sri Lanka.

Why?, you might ask and the answer is look at what is being provided for them on arrival and with Australia signed on to the UN convention and our soft own laws being made even softer, why would they not come?
There are people who will say but they have been in fear of their life etc. etc., all very difficult to disprove or measure the extent of stories spun.
In Afghanistan, the UNHCR that 5 Million Afghani refugees have returned there since 2002, 200, 000 lasy year alone and these probably from the 1M in Iran or 1.7M in Pakistan, there being about 185,000 refugees in India, last year it being reported that there were 80,000 Sri Lankans there.
So there's a lot of evidence to suggest people are making an opportunity trip, not a trip as refugees and Australia needs to compassionately remove them as quick as arrive back to their home country or a UNHCR centre.

And I say compassionately because I am compassionate about our Australian way of life where we do believe in a fair go if you play by the rules and all people will do in getting here by not playing by the rules is to gradually undermine not only our rules but how we can process others by the rules.
We already see the fee paying visa processing times being extended.
The other factors that will creep up on Australia and visa aspirants is
. Family stream visa numbers have already been reduced and seeing as people granted protection visas can then sponsor the rest of the family, though the family numbers may be counted under the humanitarian stream, as they balloon upwards it would not be surprising to see family stream numbers reviewed.
. Greater asylum seeker numbers will see even more resources needed to be allocated, possibly even a cause for some staff departures and effectively even longer processing times for other visa applicants.
Some people might say Oh!, lets be more compassionate, let even more in, don't worry about checks, appoint more staff etc. etc. and that is fine for those who not care too much for what sort of society we have and I had better explain for otherwise there'll likely be the racist flag raised, but you do need to think a bit more broadly than that for all developing/developed nations have a need for a good balance of skills and the ability to create all manner of things consistent with a standard of living we have.

That means keeping a good balance of people with the occupational and language skills and that is something most people seeking asylum will not have and even some family stream immigrants may not have.
The requirements for skilled people is pretty much on display in those visa sections and qualifications and skills do take time to develop and they need to be of a standard acceptable to Australia.
Thus running a system that would see a trend towards more of lesser skilled will in effect not just increase the burden on existing services but likely see the availability drop off in relative terms.

So I do greatly disagree with your ideal of overhauling the application process globally and if you give it some thought you may concur that you need a common standard that also accomodates for some other cultures.
And we should expect Immigration officers to consider applications against the regulations, nothing more, nothing less and yes times will always vary for many reasons.


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## Dexter

Actually, I know quite a few muslims here and they are really cool people. They practice their religion and traditions as others do. They despise extremists of their religion. Obviously, we have some trouble makers of muslim background (they are usually referred to as Lebs or Wogs) but there is no large hostility or ridiculing of people from that sort of religion.


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## eduardoelf

yes.i agree..strongly agree


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## vicshepardnrs

The rules of Visas and Immigration are all-ways something over my head.
_______
Vic


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## Dr Undies

I think that the bureaucratic rules are above most people's heads...and are made to be as confusing as possible ... so much so that the Immigration Department workers don't even understand what they've written or why.



vicshepardnrs said:


> The rules of Visas and Immigration are all-ways something over my head.
> _______
> Vic


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## BlueGem

As far as my personal knowledge is concern, some legal discrimination turns expressly on place of residence. If such discrimination have sparkled much scholarly comment when they disfavor out-of-stayers. What you are actually facing now is territorial discrimination. However, in the end its still a matter of how you deal with the people around whether you are of the same preferences or not.


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## downundervisa

There is racism everywhere. Yes, it exists in Australia. It's not like it was when I was a kid, when we openly called people "wogs" and "******", thank goodness. But whilst it's more obvious when it comes from the rich, white nations, it exists in every part of the world. I live and work in Philippines, and I get treated differently because I'm Australian. I'm not allowed to buy land here, and if I ended up in a legal battle with a local I'd need to watch out. I knew a Chinese girl from Singapore a few years ago who fell in love with an American. Her sister told me their parents "Didn't want her to marry a caucasian". You don't hear that said out loud in Australia anymore! 

However, when you scratch the surface you see that racism still exists beneath the veil of political-correctness. It certainly exists in immigration, and the fact is there are no votes to be gained by politicians making it easier for migrants to arrive. There's no question that it's harder for those from third-world countries to get into Australia, and the standards get higher and higher. Increasing IELTS test requirements is one of those areas. I'd suspect most white Aussies from the western suburbs would have trouble passing!

They're bringing in mandatory IELTS scores of 7.0 for new Registered Migration Agents. This will apply to existing agents too in a couple of years. Which means that an agent who had been working, say, 100% of his/her time with Chinese clients for the last 20 years could suddenly lose their registration because they can't achieve IELTS 7.0! How DOES a 57yr old Chinese, Indian, Hungarian, etc etc person suddenly gain IELTS of 7.0 with a minimum of 6.5 in reading, writing, speaking and listening? Their accent will somehow disappear?

What happens to those future Chinese clients who prefer to speak to a professional in their own language? Do they end up having to struggle through an interpreter and try to deal with an English-speaker? Or maybe they just give up and don't migrate at all? End result? Less applicants from non-English speaking countries. White Australia Policy by stealth!


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## Amandy

downundervisa said:


> There is racism everywhere. Yes, it exists in Australia. It's not like it was when I was a kid, when we openly called people "wogs" and "******", thank goodness. But whilst it's more obvious when it comes from the rich, white nations, it exists in every part of the world. I live and work in Philippines, and I get treated differently because I'm Australian. I'm not allowed to buy land here, and if I ended up in a legal battle with a local I'd need to watch out. I knew a Chinese girl from Singapore a few years ago who fell in love with an American. Her sister told me their parents "Didn't want her to marry a caucasian". You don't hear that said out loud in Australia anymore!
> 
> However, when you scratch the surface you see that racism still exists beneath the veil of political-correctness. It certainly exists in immigration, and the fact is there are no votes to be gained by politicians making it easier for migrants to arrive. There's no question that it's harder for those from third-world countries to get into Australia, and the standards get higher and higher. Increasing IELTS test requirements is one of those areas. I'd suspect most white Aussies from the western suburbs would have trouble passing!
> 
> They're bringing in mandatory IELTS scores of 7.0 for new Registered Migration Agents. This will apply to existing agents too in a couple of years. Which means that an agent who had been working, say, 100% of his/her time with Chinese clients for the last 20 years could suddenly lose their registration because they can't achieve IELTS 7.0! How DOES a 57yr old Chinese, Indian, Hungarian, etc etc person suddenly gain IELTS of 7.0 with a minimum of 6.5 in reading, writing, speaking and listening? Their accent will somehow disappear?
> 
> What happens to those future Chinese clients who prefer to speak to a professional in their own language? Do they end up having to struggle through an interpreter and try to deal with an English-speaker? Or maybe they just give up and don't migrate at all? End result? Less applicants from non-English speaking countries. White Australia Policy by stealth!


Very well put. Interpreters will surely be out of jobs in the next decade or so. So will translators. I am a professional writer and was somewhat struggling with the grammatical-type questions and tense questions they have in IELTS. I mean you should have a basic amount of English coming here to Australia, but I believe there is definitely some sort of white-Australia policy being secretly applied.


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## Nelly87

Although I do believe there is a certain amount of inequality (possibly even related to race) when it comes to immigration, I have to wonder how much of it truly is racism. I guess there is no way of ever truly knowing because just like every person from a race is an individual with unique ideas... every case officer and person working at immigration is also an individual with unique ideas and there is no way of telling who is or isn't racist based just on their jobs. Whether the rules are racist or not - that is the question I guess.

From what I can tell, the people having the hardest time getting in are those from countries that are considered Third World - whatever colour their skin is. For instance I know a woman here in Australia who came here from South Africa, which is an African country with a lot of safety and poverty issues, but she is white and yet I am guessing she did not have an easier time coming in than a black South African would. In fact she told me that when she and her husband just moved here, they felt very excluded by the locals in Australia and basically as soon as they changed their accents this became much less. So I am not sure how much of that is race and how much is simply "you are from a poor country and you came here for a better life". We do have to remember that although all countries have a "majority race", there is no longer a country in the world where there is just one race present. By making it hard for Indonesian citizens to immigrate, they are making it hard for more than one religion and race, and that is why I doubt it is purely racism based.

At the end of the day Australia, like Dexter said, has every right to deny whoever they want, and I respect that right even if I end up being denied myself for whatever reason. That is just the way of the world nowadays. I myself am from The Netherlands, where there is outrageous tension about immigration right now - I'm ashamed of my own country because one of its leading parties is very expressively anti-Muslim and I personally despise any shape or form of racism. I have seen racism in politics of immigration in my own country and it is ugly, far uglier than any situation in Australia is right now. I had Muslim friends back home and I stand by them and that you cannot judge a person's value on their race, religion or country of origin.

HOWEVER - from what I have read, immigration only has a certain amount of visas (for most visa types) they can hand out a year. I understand that they have to be very precise who they hand them to, and have to be thorough about who needs them why and if they could or couldn't do without it. I understand they have to be SOME form of selective, and that they are choosing to be selective towards countries where big influxes of immigrants have originated for reasons other than refuge or family/partners. I understand there has to be a selection process somewhere.

But what I have personally learned by moving here is that it is very unlikely anyone leaves their home and country without a very good reason. Some do, but most don't. The reason my South African friend and her husband and kids came here, is because South Africa has a CRAZY rape and violent crimes rate and she wanted her kids to grow up safely. I think that that's a pretty damn good reason to want to get into someone else's country. I personally am only here for my partner - I love Australia, don't get me wrong, but I also love The Netherlands and my family and friends there, and if for whatever reason my relationship ended (which I can't see happening really but hey, life is life) I would go straight back to where I came from. I would not ask to be here without a very, very good reason, because I had everything I loved and needed back home. I sacrificed my life and all my possessions (not to mention my cat, who was like a baby to me) to come here and I feel that is a heavy price and I don't see why anyone would pay that price without a very good reason. So I am not sure how fair it is to filter out immigrants who, on paper, 'need it less'. Whatever country they are from.

I have encountered a bit of racism here in Australia. My in-laws don't like immigrants very much - but have never thought to see me as one of them for some reason, I guess it's because I make their son happy and try so hard to adjust. Yes, racism has shown its face to me here, but to be brutally honest in my opinion it is nothing compared to what is happening in The Netherlands where people are literally suggesting refusing immigrants based on nationality and religion. That is far worse and then when I look around here, I realize it's not so bad.

Just my (page-long) opinion.


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## Boboa

downundervisa said:


> !
> They're bringing in mandatory IELTS scores of 7.0 for new Registered Migration Agents. This will apply to existing agents too in a couple of years. Which means that an agent who had been working, say, 100% of his/her time with Chinese clients for the last 20 years could suddenly lose their registration because they can't achieve IELTS 7.0!


They put that in place because agents were giving wrong advice to mainly clients from their countries (be that India or china) and when later sued by clients used the language card. Claiming they didn't fully understand the law. Every view and opinion should be balanced, it is very easy to blame the government and the system. While I don't deny racism exist in EVERY country black, white, yellow or purple, it is shameful to play the racism card whenever system doesn't accommodate you!

Nelly, BRAVO!! Your posts are absolutely fantastic


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## Dexter

Racism in Australia does exist - there is no doubt about it. Except that only the one AGAINST muslims, Indians or Asians is usually brought up. Hostility towards Australians, white people etc. also exists (and comes FROM muslims, Indians or Asians or even happens between various European/white groups) but is not brought up. 

Also, sometimes racism is required to protect the country (no matter how much we disapprove this fact). I don't mean bashing or throwing people away from the country but realisticly judge potential threats for the country and set up visa rules to protect the country. Think of how many Chinese or Indians could move in here. It is millions and as I pointed out, it could destabilize the economy. And let's face it - these countries are poor and their human resources are practically endless. This is why visa policy targets mainly those two countries. 

If we assume that Chinese don't speak English or usually speak poor English - we are racists but we are not exactly wrong. Who doesn't believe it, should stroll through the streets of Campsie or Hurstville in Sydney or Footscray in Melbourne. 

Also, history shows that current visa policy has certain reasons in the past events. For example - India used to be in group 2 in student visas many years ago. Many of them came to Australia, got PR and started opening dodgy schools and colleges to attract more Indians to apply for Australian student visa and make money on selling them education, providing services etc. Colleges did not really teach much, students did not attend lectures but still their attendace was fine etc. As a result, India was demoted to group 4 quite a few years ago (I only know these stories from migration agents, I was not here at that time). I am sure there are more occurrences like that in the past and visa policy towards India does not have much to do with racism. BTW Indians usually mix up well with local community. 

Increasing IELTS requirements is nothing else but a strong hit against China and India. Getting 8 in each section of IELTS (in order to get 20 points) is impossible even for most native speakers. Getting 7 in each section is difficult but achievable. Still - most Chinese and Indians are unable to get there. 

We can debate whether this is correct or not. From my experience I can say that politics of choosing who can be let in the country is correct but I would dispute if we are really getting these that we want to thanks to it.


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## planetmedia

Wanderer said:


> A few posters posted on a Visas & Immigration Time Line Thread re their experiences/views of what was happening and that greatly detracted from the intent of that thread.
> 
> In keeping with people being able to air happenings/thoughts I've started this thread_ [Out of the Visas & Immigration Section]_ so as such posts can be where they belong and as a service, [possibly temporary] I'll make it a sticky.
> 
> I'll put a redirecting comment post on the Time Line Thread too.
> Hopefully my redirection skill is appropriate and not all threads will be redirected as some may have been deleted! but drift is there.


I think very less immigration to Australia compared to other developed countries. Is it true?


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## Nicolasfrance

Click to play video
Another camera captures racist bus ride
Police have begun investigating as more footage emerges of the racist tirade which took place on a Melbourne bus on Remembrance Day.
Autoplay ONOFFVideo feedbackVideo settings
COMMENT: Why did no one help her?
JOHN SILVESTER: Racist, misogynist bus rage is staggering
The French woman targeted in a racist attack on a Melbourne bus earlier this month says she and her friends were terrified they would be physically assaulted by a group of fellow passengers.

My friends and I stopped laughing. We were quite afraid that he [would come] and hit us.*

It comes as police confirm they are investigating the tirade unleashed on Fanny Desaintjores aboard a bus travelling between Mordialloc and Caulfield, in which she was called a c---, a dog and threatened with having her breasts cut off after she sang a song in her native tongue.

Fanny Desaintjores, inset, with the man who abused her aboard the bus. Photo: YouTube
Ms Desaintjores told Fairfax Media she and about nine friends were on the bus, having spent the day at the beach for a barbecue and enjoying the weather.

Advertisement
On the bus, Ms Desaintjores said, "we sang French popular joyful songs, not coarse at all".

She said a man she believed to be drunk told her and her friends to shut up - "probably because he did not know the song and did not understand the words".

She said her group did not hear the man's threats at first, so he began to yell and become more aggressive.

"I was sitting in the middle of the bus at the back, so he could stare at me while screaming," Ms Desaintjores said.

"I thought he was kind of joking at first and then I realised he wasn't kidding at all, so my friends and I stopped laughing. We were quite afraid that he [would come] and hit us."

A couple, a woman and a man, pushing a pram, also joined in. The man shouted: "I'll f---ing boxcutter you right now, dog."

Ms Desaintjores said that when the couple got off the bus, the man smashed a window close to them and glass fragments hit her and a friend.

"At this point, I was really scared," she said.

"I realise that maybe we shouldn't sing in a public transport, but I think that's insane that they reacted like that, we're all adults. We could have a conversation and talk gently, instead of all these insults and threats."

The incident was reported to police on Wednesday after video footage of the incident went viral.

She was abused and called a c---, a dog, a bitch and, after singing in French, was told to "speak English or die motherf---er".

Police are looking for the two men and the woman. Anyone with information about the incident, or who was on the bus, is asked to phone CrimeStoppers on 1800 333 000.


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## Nicolasfrance

it's shocking !


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## KrystHell

Having lived in Australia for the past 2 years, I have never experienced racism.
I'm French and I feel EXTREMELY safe here compared to back in my own country/continent where I have had to deal with abuse on a daily basis. Not necessarily racist abuse, but abuse nonetheless.

I don't see racism as being a big problem in Australia for the simple reason that unlike in most European countries and in America, it's not "advertised" on TV all day every day. This is how things should be and I respect Australia a lot for that one reason only. 
The more people see racism being talked about on TV, the more they start thinking about it, the more they themselves become "racist" because they start questioning if so and so from this and that country are "entitled" to be here.

The only time I have ever felt people thought there was something wrong with me was when I first moved her and I had a very strong Dublin accent, having lived in Ireland for 6 years. Once I cleared the fact I was not Irish but French, people's attitude towards me changed dramatically. After seeing the Irish lads and girls behaviour over here (and I'm talking about backpackers... not Irish people as a general rule), I can totally understand why a large portion of the Aussie population despises them. Does that make me a racist too then, if I'm starting to feel the same way about the Irish?

I can't blame people for willing to immigrate here. Australia is an amazing country, welcoming thousands of people every year. I think it's the Government's right to put quotas on the amount of people allowed in.

My English has never been subject to discussion, I have never been asked to pass a test, but I would have happily done it without thinking one second this was "hidden racism" from the Australian immigration services.
When you move to a given country, isn't it only fair for you to learn its language and traditions? 

The whole racist issue is just something that keeps people talking. It gives them a comforting idea they're not the ones in the wrong. YOu can't really call what the Immigration department is trying to achieve "racism". I know I wouldn't. Yes I would have been very disappointed had they told me I wasn't allowed back here because my English wasn't good enough, but at the same time, like I said earlier, you know what you're in for. And having a via denied on the grounds of poor language abilities shouldn't become such a big deal.


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## Nelly87

I don't know about France but you can't really make the statement that racism is constantly brought up everywhere in all of Europe. The Netherlands may have its immigration tension but that is not racism, not that it's much better but the main problems are religion related. There is a difference between racism and discrimination. Racism writes off (or raises up) an individual based solely on their race, their genetic heritage, their ethnic appearance. RACISM is not having prejudice about a nationality, it's judging people's value as a human being based on the colour of their skin or shape of their facial features that are considered part of a particular ethnicity.

Just to keep the line sharp because technically "racism in Australia" and "discrimination towards immigrants in Australia" are slightly overlapping but practically different things. It is the difference between "I do not like people from other countries coming into mine" and "you are worthless because of your skintone".


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## Papi

Dexter said:


> Also, we also need to protect our country from potential threats such as terrorists or *convicts*.


Sorry, I had to laugh.


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## Move Migration

I wouldn't say immigration laws are racist. However there is definitely a need to screen out the illegitimate applicants from the mostly legitimate ones. This is done by looking at the risk of an application. A good example is if you look at the student visa program. Applicants are split up into "Assessment Levels". These levels are determined by the DIBP's history of visa breaches. If you happen to come from a country with a bad history, then they look at your application in more detail. It's a safety check. If you are legit, you should get through. But your application will take a longer time and go through more scrutiny.


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