# Advice please: UK citizen marrying an Australian



## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Hi everyone, 

I've been trawling these and other forums for some time now and can't find current answers to my questions. Hope the wise souls on here can help.

My partner, a UK citizen living in the UK, and I recently got in engaged on my my holiday there last month. We have been together about 2.5 years - and in that time I've been there twice and he's visited me here in Australia twice.

We are now just trying to figure out the smoothest, easiest, shortest and least expensive way to get married and both have the right to live and work in each others' countries.

We are happy to do the registry office thing in the short term to sign the relevant bits of paper to get the relevant visas so we can live in the same county (and have both of us working - not sure yet if this will be Australia or the UK) - and then have a proper celebration with friends and family in a year.

For now, he needs to stay in the UK and keep working, and I need to stay in Australia and keep working, so we are simply looking for the fastest and cheapest way we can sign the official papers. Is it possible for him to come here on a two week holiday and for us to get married in that time, after which he goes back to the UK and we are apart temporarily? The PMV + spouse visa path seems very expensive ($14,000+ combined).

Can anyone offer some advice in this situation?


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

No it is not a double fee of $7,000 it is $7,000ish + $1145 for PMV an spouse visa.

Getting a piece paper like a wedding certificate will not help your case at all, it is all about relationship evidence.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

ampk said:


> No it is not a double fee of $7,000 it is $7,000ish + $1145 for PMV an spouse visa.


Oh I see - I must have misread the Australia immigration site - it's so confusing.



ampk said:


> Getting a piece paper like a wedding certificate will not help your case at all, it is all about relationship evidence.


I think we have enough evidence to prove our 2.5 year relationship - emails, texts, calls, Skypes, two visits to each others countries, including two Christmases with our respective families, and holidays together...

We're just unsure what to do next. In the very short term, we both have commitments in our own countries, but want to get the ball rolling so we can make the move (either me to the UK or him to Australia) and both be able to work as soon as those commitments are over.

I know he can definitely take two weeks holiday here in August, so I thought that might be a good time to do the marriage registry thing, then have a 'wedding' with friends and family in Scotland next year.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

If you have the proof of 2.5 year relationship, there is no reason to get married for the visa.

You can apply now for the offshore Partner Visa 309 (as a de facto) that will be the fasted way and cheapest unless your occupation can get you a PR visa.

Getting married is only really helpful if your relationship is less than 12 months old.

If your relationship was 3 years or greater it would be better, as you could go straight to PR.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

ampk said:


> If you have the proof of 2.5 year relationship, there is no reason to get married for the visa.
> 
> You can apply now for the offshore Partner Visa 309 (as a de facto) that will be the fasted way and cheapest unless your occupation can get you a PR visa.
> 
> ...


Can he still apply for the Partner Visa 309 (as a de facto) if he's been living in Scotland the entire time of our relationship and I've been living in Australia the entire time? We've never lived together (except when staying with each other on extended holidays) and we don't have joint finances. According to immi, a defacto relationship is regarded as one where "you live together or do not live separately and apart on a permanent basis".

Will the Partner visa allow him to live and work in Australia?

And do you know if that's enough for me to then get a UK partner visa to also live and work in the UK?

Also, the $14,000 I was looking at was the PMV, which he would apply for so he could then come here and we could get married (which you can't officially do on a tourist visa), then another $7000 to change that to a Partner visa if we got married on his two week holiday here in August, while we were waiting for the PMV to come through.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Your time not being together certainly will need to be addressed in the application (you need help from a RMA on that). But there can be very valid reasons Work contracts can play a part.

A PMV can be upgraded to a Partner Visa any time before a decision is made, I don't think there is any fee for that anymore - so it is total $6885 from memory.

A consult with a RMA is about $180.

How long were the extended holidays?


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Just so you fully understand - getting married only removes the 12 month minimum relationship requirement.
Simply if you are not married (or have not registered your relationship) your relationship must be more than 12 months old. 1 day less and it will be refused.

If you are married or not, the exact same amount of evidence is required.

If you cannot meet the evidence needed for de facto or married 309 visa, then the PMV is the only option left.

**Getting married does not reduce your evidence requirements at all.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Deleted post (content covered below)


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

ampk said:


> Just so you fully understand - getting married only removes the 12 month minimum relationship requirement.
> Simply if you are not married (or have not registered your relationship) your relationship must be more than 12 months old. 1 day less and it will be refused.
> 
> If you are married or not, the exact same amount of evidence is required.
> ...


Thanks for clarifying, that makes sense. We won't be able to meet the defacto requirement as we've not lived together in an official/registered capacity (I was essentially just staying with him on holiday as you would with a friend, and he the same we he came here). Just trying to figure out if the PMV route to marry here is best, or if looking to a similar route of marriage in the UK is best, then having him apply for the 309. This is really just to ensure we can live and work in the same place - a proper celebration that would be a 'wedding' (though not actually official) would come later.

I know you can't officially intend to get married on a tourist visa, but see that people do this to try and save the $7000. If I gave notice to marry here in Australia (one month required I think) and he came he on a holiday in August and we 'spontaneously' decided to get married - would that pass? Or are we setting ourselves up for difficulties later?


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

You certainly can get married on a tourist visa, but that does not stop the fact you still need to apply for a Partner Visa and pay the $7,000.

And still needs the exact same evidence.

How long is current PMV processing times in UK?


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## JanneKL (Jan 6, 2016)

Dunno about PMV, but we've seen a lot of 309s being granted within 3-5 months through London...

EDIT: Last PMVs through London I've seen on here were last year around 5-6 months.


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## Skybluebrewer (Jan 15, 2016)

PMVs are usually faster, but in the last couple of months immi has been granted visas almost randomly to meet end of year quotas (fiscal year ends next month).

Planning to get married is only really relevant if you plan on applying for the PMV. Being engaged or married makes no difference on the 309 or 820 as you still need the required relationship evidence.

Usually, the PMV is recommended for engaged couples that are living apart. As far as I am aware, you can only request to change it to an offshore 309 if you marry before the grant of the visa, but I may be wrong. It is also my understanding that this is a special request which makes it sound like it is not guaranteed they will allow the change. I suppose it's a chance some people take.

All partner visas cost the same $6865 (with a price increase occurring after 1 July). Once the PMV is granted, the partner is able to migrate to Oz with full work rights. You marry within the 9 months then apply for the 820/801. The 820/801 price is only another $1145 for PMV holders, NOT another $6865. Also, PMV holders do not wait the same time as regular 820/801 applicants.

My partner and I felt this was the best choice for us as we were already engaged and we were definitely living apart on a permanent basis with me in the states and him in Oz, even though we saw each other about every 3 months. I didn't have the option of a W&HV as my son wouldn't be able to come with me, and I already spent the previous years in uni and did not want to get a student visa for an unnecessary degree and expense. Either of those two visas would have given us an opportunity to live together in Oz.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Sorry I missed this post, let me have a drink and a think while I work on the reply.



TazCaz said:


> The first time I visited him in the UK it was over the course of nine months in 2015/2016 (only six months spent in the UK and three months travelling in Europe - definitely did not stay over my 180 days in the Uk, but made multiple entries back to see him). Second time was last month for three weeks.
> 
> He visited me last may for two weeks, then again this past Christmas for three weeks.
> 
> ...


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

ampk said:


> Sorry I missed this post, let me have a drink and a think while I work on the reply.


It was actually delayed as for some reason it needed to be approved before being posted - and in the meantime I did a bunch more research then compiled all my new learnings (and a few more questions) into another post - which I'll post below. (You still have time to have a drink)  But very much appreciating your help with all this. What tumultuous waters these visa negotiations are!


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

There is a very lot of help on this site even from RMA's they are the ones I will recommend. I have personally used 2, but have seen the others posts over a long time. Also seen others on here recommend the ones I have not used.

They often correct us non RMA's when we make or give bad advise - they do it politely, that's how we learn the finer points often hidden in the PAM 3. A secret policy manual DIBP use.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Thanks ampk, JanneKL and Skybluebrewer for taking the time to read and offer your expertise.

I've spent hours on the Australian and UK immi sites today researching the best way for us to acquire the visas we need and I'm hoping someone can confirm if my following summations (developed with the help of @ampk) are correct and then offer some advice or experience on which is the best avenue. I have tried to use the exact visa names and terminology, rather than 'spouse' or 'engagement' visas, as it just gets confusing otherwise.

To answer your question ampk - we met online in January 2015 (which we call the start of our relationship), and met in person for the first time in June 2015.   In the past 2.5 years, I've been to visit him in the UK twice - one stint for nine months (though only 6 months in the UK, the rest of the time we were travelling in Europe, I didn't stay longer than 180 days in the UK) and another three-week holiday last month. He's visited me here in Australia twice - two weeks last May and three weeks over the Christmas just past. We've never lived together in an official/registered capacity - just stayed with each other on holidays - so we can't be classed as 'defacto'.

As mentioned, for the short term, he needs to stay in the UK and keep working, and I need to stay in Australia and keep working. He'll likely be able to come to Australia in August for a couple of weeks, during which time, we could do the 'registry thing', followed by a proper celebration with family and friends next year.   We still haven't decided where we will live and work (UK or Australia) once all this is done, though we also want to have a choice of perhaps living in one country for a couple of years, then moving to the other. We are also in the process of researching having a child in one versus the other, which is why we are yet to decide on where we'll settle.

Basically, we are trying to set up our ability to live and work in both Australia and the UK, so want to get the visa ball rolling in both countries at the same time if possible

So...

*Marrying in Australia (as I understand it)*

He can apply for a Prospective Marriage Visa (PMV) from the UK now ($6865).
He could come here in August for two weeks and we get married (though he's entitled to stay 9 months)
He goes back to the UK and changes his PMV application to an application for a Partner visa (309)
We wait two years until that is reviewed and hopefully approved

Alternatively, we marry, apply for the Partner (820) visa and he stays in Australia and works (and is allowed to travel outside Australia as many times as he wants) until it's reviewed and approved after two years.

Once the permanent Partner visa is granted (subclass 801) he can stay in Australia indefinitely, work and study in Australia, enrol in Medicare, receive some social security payments and travel outside Australia as many times as he wants for five years from the date the visa is granted (he will apparently then need a Resident Return visa to re-enter Australia)

*Questions:*

Is the Partner (309) visa exactly the same as the Partner (820) visa - with exactly the same rights, obligations and outcomes, the 309 is just the offshore version?
If they are the same, why is there an extra cost of $1145 associated with applying for the 820?
Do you need to pay $6865 for the PMV and then another $6865 for the 820 or 309?
Can he spend as much time out of Australia during the two years until it's approved? Could we both spend the entire two years out of the country together, say living in the UK?
Would we be better applying for the PMV, getting married and then waiting five more months until out relationship reaches the three year point so we can hopefully go straight to an approved Partner (Migrant) visa (subclass 100)?
Is it ok to wait between getting married and applying for the 820/309?
Just looking at Australian visas, would the cost be the same whether we married in the UK and applied for a Partner visa (309) or went down the PMV + 309 route?
Are then rules as to having to stay in Australia after being granted a permanent Partner visa (subclass 801) to ensure you keep the visa?
Once granted a Permanent Partner visa (subclass 801), and he's allowed to "travel outside Australia as many times as he wants for five years from the date the visa is granted" - does this also mean we can spend time (such as a couple of years) living outside Australia?
What happens after the five years ("he will then need a Resident Return visa to re-enter Australia")?

*Marrying in the UK (as I understand it)
*

I apply for a family visa (from Australia) now (£1,464).
He needs to be earning £18,600 per year and we must be intending to continue living together in the UK after I apply 
Wait up to 12 weeks for an answer , then go to the UK and we have six months to get married (during which time I cannot work in the UK)
Once married, I can apply to extend my visa (£993 if I am in the UK)
Wait around eight weeks (during which time I can work)
I can then stay for 2 years and 6 months. I'll be able to apply to extend again towards the end of that.

*Questions:*

If we marry in the UK, following the above paths, can my new husband also apply for the Australian Partner Visa (309) offshore? Then we wait two years until that is reviewed and hopefully approved.
If we apply for the PMV, get married in August then change to an application for a 309, can I then also apply for an extended visa in the UK?
Am I able to leave and come back to the UK in those initial 2 years and 6 months? If so, does this mean only for holiday, or could we live in Australia for a year?
Am I entitled to access the PHN during the time I am in the UK on a family/engagement visa, and then on the extended family visa after we are married?
What happens after the 2 years and 6 months?

Looking at the cost of visas only, it seems like the UK is the cheaper option.

However, it also seems like the 'intention to marry visa' (family visa/PMV) is more restrictive in the UK, in that you can stay longer in Australia on the PMV and work while you are waiting to get married.

I'd like to hear if I am correct in all my research. As ampk suggested, I will likely get a consult with an RMA (any recommendations??), but any thoughts on the above would be great. Is the above correct? Have I missed anything? Has anyone found any issues with either of these pathways? Has anyone been in the same situation and looked into both and chosen one over the other? Why? And can anyone give my suggestions as to which pathway would be the least complicated, offer the most freedom and cost the least? Is it worth getting an RMA to help prepare the applications? As I said, all we are trying to do is carve out a pathway for us both to be able to live and work in each other's country - and other countries (and in the future, potentially also with our children).

Any help with this would be much appreciated - my brain feels a bit fried!


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

ampk said:


> There is a very lot of help on this site even from RMA's they are the ones I will recommend. I have personally used 2, but have seen the others posts over a long time. Also seen others on here recommend the ones I have not used.
> 
> They often correct us non RMA's when we make or give bad advise - they do it politely, that's how we learn the finer points often hidden in the PAM 3. A secret policy manual DIBP use.


I've often wondered how visa forum experts end up with such a wide-ranging knowledge! It so great everyone is willing to help and, from what I've seen so far, this forum isn't subject to the same bickering and impatience I've seen on others.

I'll do a search on here for RMAs and see what I come up with. Thanks again.

Have also rehashed my earlier post that I then deleted when I'd done more research (and come up with more questions!)


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

I learnt most when DIBP told us we needed to leave a kid behind to get a Visitor Visa for my girlfriend and her 2 kids to meet /see me and my 3 kids in Australia to see if things could work.

I actually read the entire Migration Policy of 1950 (something), being the current policy.


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

Do you have Facebook? There is a Facebook group for UK spouse visas and they are very helpful people from what I have been told. My understanding was with the UK fiance visa that you then need to go offshore to apply for the spouse visa but I might be wrong as I don't know alot about UK spouse visas.

The thing to also factor in for UK spouse visa's is that unlike Australia where your partner will have access to Medicare in the UK the sponsor needs to pay a fee for the applicant to have access to the public health system.

From what I understand about the UK spouse visa is that the spouse is not allowed to be out of the UK for more than a specific amount of time.

After the UK spouse visa expires you then apply for the ILR (I am pretty sure that is what it is called).


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## JanneKL (Jan 6, 2016)

*Marrying in Australia (as I understand it)*
_He can apply for a Prospective Marriage Visa (PMV) from the UK now ($6865). _

Yes

_He could come here in August for two weeks and we get married (though he's entitled to stay 9 months)_

I think he is meant to stay in Australia, but I guess nobody can force him to. (Not sure if you are allowed to travel on a PMV? Anyone?)

_He goes back to the UK and changes his PMV application to an application for a Partner visa (309)_

No, as far as I know you are meant to stay in Australia and apply for a 820. I have never heard of anyone going the PMV and then 309 route.

_We wait two years until that is reviewed and hopefully approved
_

You apply for a PMV, waiting time can be more than 12 months. You marry in Aus, you apply for a 820, processing time should be faster than for people going straight for 820. 2 years after the 820 application you qualify for PR 801 application, you apply, they reassess your relationship and may or may not grant you the 801.

_Alternatively, we marry, apply for the Partner (820) visa and he stays in Australia and works (and is allowed to travel outside Australia as many times as he wants) until it's reviewed and approved after two years._

Again, I think you are only meant to apply for a 820, not the 309.

_Once the permanent Partner visa is granted (subclass 801) he can stay in Australia indefinitely, work and study in Australia, enrol in Medicare, receive some social security payments and travel outside Australia as many times as he wants for five years from the date the visa is granted (he will apparently then need a Resident Return visa to re-enter Australia)_

He can work, study, travel and enrol in medicare before getting PR 801. He can do that while on a 820.

*Questions:*

_Is the Partner (309) visa exactly the same as the Partner (820) visa - with exactly the same rights, obligations and outcomes, the 309 is just the offshore version?_

Yes, for the 309 you have to be offshore when you apply, and offshore when they grant the visa. They will notify you when they are ready to grant the visa. Apart from thatn,it's exactly the same.

_If they are the same, why is there an extra cost of $1145 associated with applying for the 820?_

There is only an extra cost if you apply for the PMV first. If you go straight for the 820 (when you fulfill the defacto requirement), then you don't have to pay the extra $1145.

_Do you need to pay $6865 for the PMV and then another $6865 for the 820 or 309?_

NO. You pay $ 6865 for the PMV. Once you marry you pay the $ 1145 to apply for the 820.

_Can he spend as much time out of Australia during the two years until it's approved? Could we both spend the entire two years out of the country together, say living in the UK?_

Dunno. To be honest, I would decide on the country you want to live in first and not waste so much money if you are not even sure where you will be. They may change the rules in a few years, may indorduce more spent time in Oz requirements and then you sit there, with a completely messed up situation. 
_

Would we be better applying for the PMV, getting married and then waiting five more months until out relationship reaches the three year point so we can hopefully go straight to an approved Partner (Migrant) visa (subclass 100)?

Probably. But it would be the 801, because you are meant to apply onshore while you are on your PMV.


Is it ok to wait between getting married and applying for the 820/309?

Yes, but you have to apply within the 9 months validity of the PMV. Otherwise the visa ceases and your partner would be illegal. ALso the faster you apply for the 820, the faster you get it.

Just looking at Australian visas, would the cost be the same whether we married in the UK and applied for a Partner visa (309) or went down the PMV + 309 route?

if you go for a PMV you will pay the extra $1445. It's either PMV+820, straight 820 or straight 309. There is not PMV+ 309.

Are then rules as to having to stay in Australia after being granted a permanent Partner visa (subclass 801) to ensure you keep the visa?

No, but you have to be in OZ a certain amount of time in order to qualify for a resident return visa or citizenship.

Once granted a Permanent Partner visa (subclass 801), and he's allowed to "travel outside Australia as many times as he wants for five years from the date the visa is granted" - does this also mean we can spend time (such as a couple of years) living outside Australia?

Yes, but you have to be in OZ a certain amount of time in order to qualify for a resident return visa or citizenship. But why go through the hassle and spend all the money when you do not intend to live in Oz (yet)?


What happens after the five years ("he will then need a Resident Return visa to re-enter Australia")?

Yes

Again:

You have 3 options for a partner visa

Option 1: you do not fulfill the 1 year defacto requirement and are OFFSHORE ->PMV Your partner flies to Aus, you get married there and you then apply for a 820/801 ONSHORE. Costs $6865 for the PMV PLUS $1145 for the 820 upgrade.

Option 2: you fulfill the 1 year defacto requirement and are OFFSHORE -> 309/100. Costs $6865

Option 3: you fulfill the 1 year defacto requirement and are ONSHORE -> 820/801. Costs $6865

(prices will increase in July)_


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

There is no requirement to stay or be married in Australia, but the entry must be made before expire date.

You can get married in any country you wish.

If you enter Australia and get married in the 9 months you apply for the next stage.

That normally is the 820 (onshore)

** But now I am not certain? can it be a 309?

I do not know or is it tied in with a bridging visa thing for the PMV?

I do not know. I know there is no requirement other than an entry only for the PMV.


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## JanneKL (Jan 6, 2016)

ampk said:


> ** But now I am not certain? can it be a 309?


Never heard of anyone doing a PMV/309. There were poeple doing a registry wedding in Aus and a ceremony somewhere else. But never anyone mentioning applying for a 309 after a PMV. And why would you, when the PMV allows you to be in Aus with your partner?


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## sheilae (Jan 28, 2017)

Yeah, nothing I've read in my research has said you can (or cannot) apply for a 309. I think the assumption is you'll be in Australia. Although in all the DIBP documents it says PMV to 820... I would for sure check with a RMA that applying for a 309 in even possible.


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

If you want to go the 3 year relationship route I would be getting a registered migration agent to review your evidence. Based on what you have said it appears to be that you have visited each other twice for short periods, DIBP could see this as dating and not a de facto relationship.


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## JanneKL (Jan 6, 2016)

I think TazCaz is making it unnecessarily difficult. I know it may be a complicated decidion to decide on one country, especially if both a settled in their surroudings, have good jobs etc. but I think the plan of both being able to live/work in each other's countries at any time is just not feasible. It costs a lot of money and nerves to get the visa processed and there are the "time in australia" restrictions, that in the end it might have all been for nothing because they may not fulfill the time period stayed in Australia (or the UK, whatever the visa rules are there). One person has to commit and give up their "life" for now and move. In a couple of years you can still apply for the other country's visa, if you decide to move back.

TazCaz, you don't have a parent who is/was a British citizen by any chance? 10 Pound Pom or something?


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

JanneKL said:


> Never heard of anyone doing a PMV/309. There were poeple doing a registry wedding in Aus and a ceremony somewhere else. But never anyone mentioning applying for a 309 after a PMV. And why would you, when the PMV allows you to be in Aus with your partner?


I'll have to go back and read through my notes again - admittedly I've been reading a lot today so I might have gotten my wires crossed. But my thought for the 309 was that if he came to Australia in August and we married, he'd still have a few work obligations back in Scotland and wouldn't be able to live here immediately - and perhaps other long-distance couples might be in the same situation where they have lives that need to be tied up before one partner is able to make the move - so had just assumed the 309 would be the way to go?


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

I agree with JanneKL. One thing that needs to considered is that Australia is looking at having it that they must hold PR for atleast 4 years before they apply for citizenship. If this goes through then this is something to think about too.

I think you just need to decide on a country. However depending on your age you could both do the working holiday in each others countries and then at the end of 2 years (1 year in each country gives you time to decide) you can decide which country is the better place to live.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Mish said:


> I agree with JanneKL. One thing that needs to considered is that Australia is looking at having it that they must hold PR for atleast 4 years before they apply for citizenship. If this goes through then this is something to think about too.
> 
> I think you just need to decide on a country. However depending on your age you could both do the working holiday in each others countries and then at the end of 2 years (1 year in each country gives you time to decide) you can decide which country is the better place to live.


We're both too old for the working holiday visa unfortunately, but you're right, I think we do need to make a decision. We're just trying to set ourselves up as best we can to be able to live in both countries in the future, so want to make sure we're not sabotaging that by going about things the wrong way.

When you hold PR (in order to get citizenship) - are the rules about how long you can spend outside a country?


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Every poster today and tonight has problems understanding DIBP stuff even RMA's do at times.

Key is to find out as much as you can, then relax for a moment and work towards the better options. 

Then unless it is simple and straight forward - consult a RMA to confirm option/s.


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

TazCaz said:


> We're both too old for the working holiday visa unfortunately, but you're right, I think we do need to make a decision. We're just trying to set ourselves up as best we can to be able to live in both countries in the future, so want to make sure we're not sabotaging that by going about things the wrong way.
> 
> When you hold PR (in order to get citizenship) - are the rules about how long you can spend outside a country?


Yes. In Australia currently it is 1 year PR atleast and total of 4 years with no more than 12 months outside Australia and of that no more than 90 days in the 12 months prior.

The government is looking at changing it to 4 years PR but we will know if it goes ahead later in the year.


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## JanneKL (Jan 6, 2016)

TazCaz said:


> I'll have to go back and read through my notes again - admittedly I've been reading a lot today so I might have gotten my wires crossed. But my thought for the 309 was that if he came to Australia in August and we married, he'd still have a few work obligations back in Scotland and wouldn't be able to live here immediately - and perhaps other long-distance couples might be in the same situation where they have lives that need to be tied up before one partner is able to make the move - so had just assumed the 309 would be the way to go?


It's a complicated issue...especially decyphering DIBP's website...they omit a lot of valuable information.

I'm too tired to come up with a reasonable solution right now. Maybe the others can... as previously suggested, maybe you should invest a bit of money in a registered migration agent, who'll be able to talk you through your options. The initial consultation won't be that expensive and you'll have an expert explaining everything.

Or as Mish suggested, a working holiday visa for the beginning if you still qualify.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Mish said:


> If you want to go the 3 year relationship route I would be getting a registered migration agent to review your evidence. Based on what you have said it appears to be that you have visited each other twice for short periods, DIBP could see this as dating and not a de facto relationship.


Oh, I had assumed that the three year relationship direct to 810 route wasn't based on a defacto situation as I hadn't read that anywhere. I'll have to go back and look again. Thanks for the tip!


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## JanneKL (Jan 6, 2016)

TazCaz said:


> We're just trying to set ourselves up as best we can to be able to live in both countries in the future, so want to make sure we're not sabotaging that by going about things the wrong way.


The only easy way to dothat will be citizenships in both countries...if you are on visas you'll always be exposed to things like a resident return visa, time requirements, changes of rules and extra costs.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

JanneKL said:


> It's a complicated issue...especially decyphering DIBP's website...they omit a lot of valuable information.
> 
> I'm too tired to come up with a reasonable solution right now. Maybe the others can... as previously suggested, maybe you should invest a bit of money in a registered migration agent, who'll be able to talk you through your options. The initial consultation won't be that expensive and you'll have an expert explaining everything.
> 
> Or as Mish suggested, a working holiday visa for the beginning if you still qualify.


Unfortunately we're both too old for the working holiday visa - and neither of us have ancestry we can ride the coat-tails of. I'm one generation too far removed - otherwise I would have busted out that dual passport years ago!

Thanks for your help - it is a complicated situation and I think it's proven I will have to find a good migration lawyer I can talk to about our options. I'll have a look through these forums for some recommended names.


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

TazCaz said:


> Oh, I had assumed that the three year relationship direct to 810 route wasn't based on a defacto situation as I hadn't read that anywhere. I'll have to go back and look again. Thanks for the tip!


It is either de facto relationship or marriage. If you don't have that then it is not worth waiting extra time to apply.

One thing to mention also is that unlike the 820 where you need to be married at time of application with the 309 the marriage is before the decision is made.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

JanneKL said:


> The only easy way to dothat will be citizenships in both countries...if you are on visas you'll always be exposed to things like a resident return visa, time requirements, changes of rules and extra costs.


I guess that's what I've been trying to get at - I've just been terrible at expressing it - the ultimate aim is to get citizenship in both countries, so we're trying to figure out the most logical path to make that happen.


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## JanneKL (Jan 6, 2016)

Mish said:


> Yes. In Australia currently it is 1 year PR atleast and total of 4 years with no more than 12 months outside Australia and of that no more than 90 days in the 12 months prior.
> 
> The government is looking at changing it to 4 years PR but we will know if it goes ahead later in the year.


That's why we've decided to stay put for the next 4 - 4.5 years even though we'd like to move back to Europe (my partner is a dual Aus/UK citizen)...of course we're facing the additional trouble of Germany not really liking dual citizenship...but that will be future Janne's problem...


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## JanneKL (Jan 6, 2016)

TazCaz said:


> Unfortunately we're both too old for the working holiday visa - and neither of us have ancestry we can ride the coat-tails of. I'm one generation too far removed - otherwise I would have busted out that dual passport years ago!
> 
> Thanks for your help - it is a complicated situation and I think it's proven I will have to find a good migration lawyer I can talk to about our options. I'll have a look through these forums for some recommended names.


We'll be facing the same for our baby. My partner got his UK citizenship from his dad, but our bub will be one generation too far...

There are some posting on this forum, you can tell by their signatures. You could contact those. They do skype consultations. If you look for migration agents, make sure they are MARA registered.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Mish said:


> It is either de facto relationship or marriage. If you don't have that then it is not worth waiting extra time to apply.
> 
> One thing to mention also is that unlike the 820 where you need to be married at time of application with the 309 the marriage is before the decision is made.


So you have to be defacto OR married for three years to apply direct for the 801? I was thinking if we got a PMV, got married in August, then waited five months until we had been in a relationship three years, then we could apply straight for the 801 permanent visa, but again, I might have misread.

Would you also mind explaining what you mean by your second point above?


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## JanneKL (Jan 6, 2016)

TazCaz said:


> I guess that's what I've been trying to get at - I've just been terrible at expressing it - the ultimate aim is to get citizenship in both countries, so we're trying to figure out the most logical path to make that happen.


If you end up going the PMV route, it may take your partner up to 8 years or so to get Aussi citizenship (if the new rules pass parliament). Faster would be the skilled visa route. Depending on what your partner's profession is, a skilled visa might be an option for you as well.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

JanneKL said:


> We'll be facing the same for our baby. My partner got his UK citizenship from his dad, but our bub will be one generation too far...
> 
> There are some posting on this forum, you can tell by their signatures. You could contact those. They do skype consultations. If you look for migration agents, make sure they are MARA registered.


Thanks JanneKL, I'll be sure to check they are registered.

In Australia, you can go back you your grandparents to get dual citizenship, so your baby would be ok with his grandfather's citizenship.


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## JanneKL (Jan 6, 2016)

TazCaz said:


> So you have to be defacto OR married for three years to apply direct for the 801? I was thinking if we got a PMV, got married in August, then waited five months until we had been in a relationship three years, then we could apply straight for the 801 permanent visa, but again, I might have misread.
> 
> Would you also mind explaining what you mean by your second point above?


You will always apply for a 820 or 309, but based on the duration of your relationship DIBP MAY grant you the 801. You can't apply for it directly and it's not guaranteed that you'll get it. It always depends on your evidence.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

JanneKL said:


> If you end up going the PMV route, it may take your partner up to 8 years or so to get Aussi citizenship (if the new rules pass parliament). Faster would be the skilled visa route. Depending on what your partner's profession is, a skilled visa might be an option for you as well.


Ah yes, thanks for reminding me to check the skills shortage list - it changes often. Unfortunately I'm just a boring old journalist/writer/web producer/film person, which are a dime a dozen. He works in the sexy world of finance, so not much help there either!


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

JanneKL said:


> You will always apply for a 820 or 309, but based on the duration of your relationship DIBP MAY grant you the 801. You can't apply for it directly and it's not guaranteed that you'll get it. It always depends on your evidence.


Ah, gotcha - thanks!


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## JanneKL (Jan 6, 2016)

TazCaz said:


> Thanks JanneKL, I'll be sure to check they are registered.
> 
> In Australia, you can go back you your grandparents to get dual citizenship, so your baby would be ok with his grandfather's citizenship.


The baby will be born in Australia and have an Aussie dad and PR mom, so the Aussie citizenship is not our issue. German is fine as well as I'll pass mine on. We just can't get him/her the British one as a third nationality. Not a big issue atm as the the UK is still in the EU, but depending on the Brexit deal, it would be handy to have a UK passport as well. First world problem, though. Nothing to really worry about.


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

JanneKL said:


> We'll be facing the same for our baby. My partner got his UK citizenship from his dad, but our bub will be one generation too far...


Did they change the rules? I know someone who got theirs from their grandparents but that was about 10 years ago.


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## JanneKL (Jan 6, 2016)

Some of the migration agents on the forum:
wrussell, Jeremy Hooper, Mark Northam, CCMS and occasionally Lisa Wulfsohn.
I haven't used any of them, but there are some forum members who have. 
Just check out their websites.


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

TazCaz said:


> So you have to be defacto OR married for three years to apply direct for the 801? I was thinking if we got a PMV, got married in August, then waited five months until we had been in a relationship three years, then we could apply straight for the 801 permanent visa, but again, I might have misread.
> 
> Would you also mind explaining what you mean by your second point above?


3 years relationship does not help to go straight to 801 but 3 years de facto relationship evidence does.

For the 309 you could apply and not be married and then marry 1 month later, where the 820 you need to be married when you apply for the 820.


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## JanneKL (Jan 6, 2016)

Mish said:


> Did they change the rules? I know someone who got theirs from their grandparents but that was about 10 years ago.


May have changed, dunno. I had a look and there are various scenarios for getting the UK passport. But it seemed to me that, as my partner was born in Australia and has not lived a certain amount of years in the UK and certainly not when the baby will be born, his citizenship can't be passed on as he himself only inherited it. I may be wrong and would be glad if someone could correct me, but I think it's not going to work.

Germany would accept citizenship passed on from a foreign born mother who inherited German citizenship only if the baby's citizenship was claimed within the first year of it's life. So I guess not accepting the second foreign born generation isn't that weird.

EDIT: "The British citizen by descent parent must have lived in the UK (or, if the child was born on or after 21 May 2002, in a British overseas territory) for a continuous period of 3 years at any time before the child's birth. During that period they should not have absences exceeding 270 days. The application must be made whilst the child is under 18 years of age."

My partner only lived there for a bit more than a year (to fulfill Aus partner visa conditions)...so unfortunately we won't be able to get a UK passport for bub.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

I am sure TazCaz never expected such a response -may need a day to comprehend all the info is my guess.


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## sheilae (Jan 28, 2017)

Mish said:


> Did they change the rules? I know someone who got theirs from their grandparents but that was about 10 years ago.


For the UK it depends when you were born, they changed it from grandparents (rather grandfathers) to parents for those born after 1983.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

JanneKL said:


> Some of the migration agents on the forum:
> wrussell, Jeremy Hooper, Mark Northam, CCMS and occasionally Lisa Wulfsohn.
> I haven't used any of them, but there are some forum members who have.
> Just check out their websites.


Wonderful, thanks JanneKL!


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

ampk said:


> I am sure TazCaz never expected such a response -may need a day to comprehend all the info is my guess.


I certainly didn't ampk - I've definitely opened a can of worms! Though I feel with all my research yesterday and the wonderful help last night from everyone on this thread, I'm a little bit closer to making some sense of it all! Thanks so much again. Just reading through all my notes now


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

JanneKL said:


> *Marrying in Australia (as I understand it)*
> _He can apply for a Prospective Marriage Visa (PMV) from the UK now ($6865). _
> 
> Yes
> ...


_

Thanks JanneKL - think I can see where I was confused with the 820 and the 309. Don't think that even with a 2.5 year relationship, and two holidays each in each other's countries, including two Christmases, under our belts we'll meet the defacto requirements, but I'll still check with a RMA just in case. Looks like it would be the PMV >820 route.

I assume he can apply for the PMV in Scotland now and still come to Australia and we can get married in August even if the PMV hasn't come through?

Does he enter on a tourist visa still?

And then do we just submit an application for the 820 as soon as we are married and wait two years for 801 approval?

Is there a chance this might be approved sooner given we have been together 2.5 years (and will have evidence of this, though not of officially living together outside of my 6 months on a tourist visa with him in the UK, then another three weeks last month, and his 2 x 3 week stints to Australia on a tourist visa)?

Also, do you know if during the two years we are waiting for the 821 to come through he is allowed to leave Australia? Could we theoretically live in Scotland during that time?

Finally, as far as I can now understand it, you got PMV then 820, OR you apply for the 309, which says:
"You and your Australian partner:
• are legally married; OR
• intend to legally marry before a decision is made
on your visa; OR
• have been in a de facto relationship for at least the
entire 12 months prior to the date of application."

So does this mean the 309 is essentially like the PMV? That if we are intending to marry we can just apply for that, he can come to Australia and we get married then apply for the permanent subclass 100? Just thought the "intend to legally marry before a decision is made
on your visa; OR have been in a de facto relationship for at least the
entire 12 months prior to the date of application" means the 'defacto/living together proof isn't necessary for the 309?_


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

TazCaz said:


> Thanks JanneKL - think I can see where I was confused with the 820 and the 309. Don't think that even with a 2.5 year relationship, and two holidays each in each other's countries, including two Christmases, under our belts we'll meet the defacto requirements, but I'll still check with a RMA just in case. Looks like it would be the PMV >820 route.
> 
> I assume he can apply for the PMV in Scotland now and still come to Australia and we can get married in August even if the PMV hasn't come through?
> 
> ...


Yes, he will be able to apply for a tourist visa and when granted enter on a tourist visa while the PMV is processing. If he is still onshore when the PMV is processing he will be asked to leave Australia so a decision can be made. He does not need to return to the UK, he can just go to NZ for a week. He will not be able to work on the tourist visa.

After the PMV is granted they need to enter Australia and then get married. After married you can submit the 820. After 2 years of submitting the 820 he is eligible for the 801, however the 801 is not granted right on the 2 year mark. The processing times currently for the 801 is 75% within 15 months of the eligibility date and 90% within 20 months of the eligibility date. Who knows, what it will be like 2+ years from now.

The length of the relationship doesn't usually speed up the process much unfortunately.

He can leave Australia once the 820 is granted without having to apply for a BVB to leave. However, when you apply for the 801 if you are still offshore when a case officer is assigned they usually ask about intentions to reside in Australia.

No, you have the 309 and PMV (300) confused. The 309 you need to be married before the 309 is granted, where the PMV you marry after the visa is granted and they have entered Australia.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Mish said:


> No, you have the 309 and PMV (300) confused. The 309 you need to be married before the 309 is granted, where the PMV you marry after the visa is granted and they have entered Australia.


Hi Mish, thanks for that - all very helpful. A shame you can't work on the PMV - more reason to get married quickly and apply for the 820. Given he will need to be earning money, I guess his only option is to apply for PMV, come here on a tourist visa and we get married, then we apply for his 820 before he goes straight back to work in the UK. What do people usually do while that are waiting for their 820 to be approved?

And is it literally just a matter of we get married, we can send of the 820 application the next day and he can fly out the day after that?

As for the 309 - I got that info from the Partner Migration Booklet, which says you can apply for the 309 if you "intend to legally marry before a decision is made" so I thought he could apply for the 309 instead of the PMV, then he flies to Australia on the tourist visa and we get married before the 309 is granted? Given the wait time is a 11 months at least, we'd have plenty of time.


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

TazCaz said:


> Hi Mish, thanks for that - all very helpful. A shame you can't work on the PMV - more reason to get married quickly and apply for the 820. Given he will need to be earning money, I guess his only option is to apply for PMV, come here on a tourist visa and we get married, then we apply for his 820 before he goes straight back to work in the UK. What do people usually do while that are waiting for their 820 to be approved?
> 
> And is it literally just a matter of we get married, we can send of the 820 application the next day and he can fly out the day after that?
> 
> As for the 309 - I got that info from the Partner Migration Booklet, which says you can apply for the 309 if you "intend to legally marry before a decision is made" so I thought he could apply for the 309 instead of the PMV, then he flies to Australia on the tourist visa and we get married before the 309 is granted? Given the wait time is a 11 months at least, we'd have plenty of time.


I think you have gotten a little bit confused. He can work on the PMV but cannot work while he is waiting for the PMV to be approved.

You sound confused about the process. This is what usually happens: They apply for the PMV, the PMV is granted, they fly to Australia, they get married within the 9 months, they apply for the 820 within 9 months.

However, some people do come on a tourist visa while waiting for the PMV to be processed (you don't have to do this if you don't want to). If he applied for the PMV, flew to Australia on a tourist visa, you got married and then applied for the 820 and he then flew back to the UK you would need pay the $7,000 again for the 820 and the PMV would then become void because you are married.

Yes you can apply for the PMV instead as long as you are married before the 309 is granted. I have heard of some being granted in 5 months so it can be risky doing it that way.


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## sheilae (Jan 28, 2017)

TazCaz said:


> Hi Mish, thanks for that - all very helpful. A shame you can't work on the PMV - more reason to get married quickly and apply for the 820. Given he will need to be earning money, I guess his only option is to apply for PMV, come here on a tourist visa and we get married, then we apply for his 820 before he goes straight back to work in the UK. What do people usually do while that are waiting for their 820 to be approved?
> 
> And is it literally just a matter of we get married, we can send of the 820 application the next day and he can fly out the day after that?
> 
> As for the 309 - I got that info from the Partner Migration Booklet, which says you can apply for the 309 if you "intend to legally marry before a decision is made" so I thought he could apply for the 309 instead of the PMV, then he flies to Australia on the tourist visa and we get married before the 309 is granted? Given the wait time is a 11 months at least, we'd have plenty of time.


I think you're mistaken, a PMV does come with full work rights.

Once you've married and applied for your 820 you go on to a Bridging Visa A (when the PMV expires after 9 months) and also have full work rights, and access to Medicare. So if you apply now, you're PMV will (hopefully) be granted in the next <12 months and then he can come to Australia and live and work without impediment.

For an 820 grant he does need to be onshore. So he could leave, but he'd have to inform DIBP and be able to get back pretty quickly if they were ready to make a decision. I'm not sure how it works visa-wise, since typically he'd be on a BVA which does not come with travel-rights.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Mish said:


> I think you have gotten a little bit confused. He can work on the PMV but cannot work while he is waiting for the PMV to be approved.
> 
> You sound confused about the process. This is what usually happens: They apply for the PMV, the PMV is granted, they fly to Australia, they get married within the 9 months, they apply for the 820 within 9 months.
> 
> ...


I was thinking he would apply now and he'd be here in August - which is only a couple of months away and processing time on the immi website is saying 11 months minimum for both the PMV and the 309.

Also, are you saying you would need to pay the $7000 again because you are only eligible to pay the $1400 extra for the 820 if you already have the PMV - thus if we married before the PMV was granted we'd have to pay the $7000 again for the 820?

What would be the option then, if we are looking at the above scenario? (ie potential registry marriage in August?). The 309? Are there any other conditions on this visa that might trip us up?


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

TazCaz said:


> I was thinking he would apply now and he'd be here in August - which is only a couple of months away and processing time on the immi website is saying 11 months minimum for both the PMV and the 309.
> 
> Also, are you saying you would need to pay the $7000 again because you are only eligible to pay the $1400 extra for the 820 if you already have the PMV - thus if we married before the PMV was granted we'd have to pay the $7000 again for the 820?
> 
> What would be the option then, if we are looking at the above scenario? (ie potential registry marriage in August?). The 309? Are there any other conditions on this visa that might trip us up?


Correct, you only pay the extra $1145 (or whatever it is after 1 July) if you currently hold a PMV that has been granted and not expired. If you have applied for a PMV and then get married if you apply for a 820 you will need to pay the $7,000 again. However, you can withdraw the PMV and change it to a 309 after marriage. However, you need to remember that a marriage certificate alone is not enough evidence, you will need evidence showing how you have combined your life financially, household etc.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

sheilae said:


> I think you're mistaken, a PMV does come with full work rights.
> 
> Once you've married and applied for your 820 you go on to a Bridging Visa A (when the PMV expires after 9 months) and also have full work rights, and access to Medicare. So if you apply now, you're PMV will (hopefully) be granted in the next <12 months and then he can come to Australia and live and work without impediment.
> 
> For an 820 grant he does need to be onshore. So he could leave, but he'd have to inform DIBP and be able to get back pretty quickly if they were ready to make a decision. I'm not sure how it works visa-wise, since typically he'd be on a BVA which does not come with travel-rights.


Thanks Sheilae - I think what I'm struggling with is the waiting time. We don't want to wait another year until the PMV is granted - as we've been apart so long we want to sort this out ASAP, so we are looking at just a registry situation in August when he comes for a holiday. Just can't see a solution that means he can work, or that we won't be paying the $7000 twice (the PMV and then the 820 if we get married before we are granted the PMV). Even if we paid the $7000 twice, I assume he'd need to go back to the UK to work as we'd need to wait out some time until the 820 or bridging visa kicked in?


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

TazCaz said:


> Thanks Sheilae - I think what I'm struggling with is the waiting time. We don't want to wait another year until the PMV is granted - as we've been apart so long we want to sort this out ASAP, so we are looking at just a registry situation in August when he comes for a holiday. Just can't see a solution that means he can work, or that we won't be paying the $7000 twice (the PMV and then the 820 if we get married before we are granted the PMV). Even if we paid the $7000 twice, I assume he'd need to go back to the UK to work as we'd need to wait out some time until the 820 or bridging visa kicked in?


With tourist visa's if it is a 12 months with 3 months max per stay if he leaves and comes back again the clock restarts counting for when the bridging visa kicks in.

It is not just about what is the quickest but which option you have enough evidence for. Alot of people do the PMV because they do not have enough evidence for a 309/820 visa as when living apart it is very hard to get financial evidence, joint bills and all of those things.

It is best to speak with a RMA to see if you would have enough evidence for a spouse visa.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Mish said:


> Correct, you only pay the extra $1145 (or whatever it is after 1 July) if you currently hold a PMV that has been granted and not expired. If you have applied for a PMV and then get married if you apply for a 820 you will need to pay the $7,000 again. However, you can withdraw the PMV and change it to a 309 after marriage. However, you need to remember that a marriage certificate alone is not enough evidence, you will need evidence showing how you have combined your life financially, household etc.


So what do people usually do in this kind of situation - if they want to get the visa ball rolling ASAP, be together in the same country, but also need to work? The waiting times and no work restrictions seem to make this very difficult! For example, what would happen if he, say, applied for a PMV tomorrow, came here in August on a tourist visa, we got married, the next day we withdrew the PMV application and applied for an 820 - we'd still have to wait for that to be approved before he could work as he'd still be on a tourist visa. That could take a year (though the tourist visa would only last 6 months - and the PMV/820 likely wouldn't have been approved by then). Or he could go back to the UK straight after we get married and apply for the 309, but then how do we prove combining our life financially? I admit, I am still very much learning about this, but it seems a process that's very fraught with problems!

It might end up just being easier for us to marry there and try to come back here on a 309 - but again, the whole needing poof of 'combining your life and finances' is hard when you are living on opposite sides of the planet!


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Mish said:


> With tourist visa's if it is a 12 months with 3 months max per stay if he leaves and comes back again the clock restarts counting for when the bridging visa kicks in.
> 
> It is not just about what is the quickest but which option you have enough evidence for. Alot of people do the PMV because they do not have enough evidence for a 309/820 visa as when living apart it is very hard to get financial evidence, joint bills and all of those things.
> 
> It is best to speak with a RMA to see if you would have enough evidence for a spouse visa.


Thanks Mish, definitely going to speak with an RMA - hopefully tomorrow - just trying to do as much research as I can first so I can go to them with the right questions. It seems in this case that unless we pay the $7000 twice and he goes back to the UK we'll be waiting the ~12 months for the PMV to be approved and that's just something we don't want to do when we're in our late 30s and hoping to also start a family.


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## Skybluebrewer (Jan 15, 2016)

With as many questions as you have and how you keep getting confused with the answers, you're probably better off using an agent. One little mistake along the line because you misread or misunderstood something can screw you big time, depending on what mistake it is.

And low risk countries usually get PMV grants within a few months, rarely up to a year. Last one I saw recently from the UK was within 3-5 months, I believe. On PMV he has work rights and travel rights. You can marry within a month of entering Oz with the PMV then apply 820, and seeing how the 820 from the 300 can take anywhere from a few days to a few months, it actually can be the faster route rather than applying for the 820 alone. My 820 from 300 took 20 days to grant. 

And yes you can change the 300 to a 309 if you marry before the grant but why would you even bother applying for the 300 if that's the plan? Just apply for the 309, wait your time together offshore, then move to Oz with work rights (or do the same with the PMV).


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

TazCaz said:


> So what do people usually do in this kind of situation - if they want to get the visa ball rolling ASAP, be together in the same country, but also need to work? The waiting times and no work restrictions seem to make this very difficult! For example, what would happen if he, say, applied for a PMV tomorrow, came here in August on a tourist visa, we got married, the next day we withdrew the PMV application and applied for an 820 - we'd still have to wait for that to be approved before he could work as he'd still be on a tourist visa. That could take a year (though the tourist visa would only last 6 months - and the PMV/820 likely wouldn't have been approved by then). Or he could go back to the UK straight after we get married and apply for the 309, but then how do we prove combining our life financially? I admit, I am still very much learning about this, but it seems a process that's very fraught with problems!


Usually what people will do is come on a tourist visa, get married and then apply for the 820 and then wait the 3 months and then they can work when the bridging visa kicks in. That is the quickest way to work while being together.

If you apply for an 820 onshore and he comes on a 3 month tourist visa then he will get a bridging visa, the work rights will kick in after the 3 month tourist visa expires. That is the best option in regards to working and being together. If he is going to come in August and get married and you apply for an 820 then you would be better not applying for a PMV and wasting all that money.

Generally people from the UK have a 12 month tourist visa with a maximum of 3 months stay per visit.

I think the first thing is to speak with a RMA and see if the evidence you have is enough for a spouse visa that is the first step. There is no point in applying for a spouse visa if you do not have enough evidence. So once you know if you have enough evidence then everything will be alot clearer for what you should do. ie. apply for PMV or apply for the 820.


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## Skybluebrewer (Jan 15, 2016)

And I don't understand why you keep talking about paying $7k twice. Absolutely no reason for that at all.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Skybluebrewer said:


> With as many questions as you have and how you keep getting confused with the answers, you're probably better off using an agent. One little mistake along the line because you misread or misunderstood something can screw you big time, depending on what mistake it is.
> 
> And low risk countries usually get PMV grants within a few months, rarely up to a year. Last one I saw recently from the UK was within 3-5 months, I believe. On PMV he has work rights and travel rights. You can marry within a month of entering Oz with the PMV then apply 820, and seeing how the 820 from the 300 can take anywhere from a few days to a few months, it a tually can be the faster route rather than applying for the 820 alone. My 820 from 300 took 20 days to grant.
> 
> And yes you can change the 300 to a 309 if you marry before the grant but why would you even bother applying for the 300 if that's the plan? Just apply for the 309, wait your time together offshore, then move to Oz with work rights (or do the same with the PMV).


I agree Skybluebrewer - will hopefully be talking with an agent tomorrow.

And I definitely see the point about just applying straight for a 309, but again, I'm being told you need proof of combining your life and finances together - that can be hard when you are waiting out visa times together on tourist visas with no working rights and you need to be earning money while you do so.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Skybluebrewer said:


> And I don't understand why you keep talking about paying $7k twice. Absolutely no reason for that at all.


Because a few posts ago, Mish said "If he applied for the PMV, flew to Australia on a tourist visa, you got married and then applied for the 820 and he then flew back to the UK you would need pay the $7,000 again for the 820 and the PMV would then become void because you are married."

Obviously I understand I don't have to do this - but I don't see an option for a scenario where we can apply for something now, he comes here in August, we marry and then he can stay here and support himself. He'd need to go back to the UK to continue working and, as Mish said, because the PMV is now void and we had applied for the 820 - it would cost us $7000 again.

As you said, I am getting confused - I only started researching all this yesterday - but I am trying to get as much background as I can before I talk to an agent. I apologise for any frustration I am causing.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Mish said:


> Usually what people will do is come on a tourist visa, get married and then apply for the 820 and then wait the 3 months and then they can work when the bridging visa kicks in. That is the quickest way to work while being together.
> 
> If you apply for an 820 onshore and he comes on a 3 month tourist visa then he will get a bridging visa, the work rights will kick in after the 3 month tourist visa expires. That is the best option in regards to working and being together. If he is going to come in August and get married and you apply for an 820 then you would be better not applying for a PMV and wasting all that money.
> 
> ...


Thanks Mish - that makes a lot of sense. I appreciate you taking the time to explain it. So people just don't work for the three months between arriving/getting married and the bridging visa kicking in?

So basically a bridging visa is what you get if you are on one visa (say a tourist visa) and have applied for another visa (say the 820 after you are married) but it hasn't come through yet. After the first three months of the tourist visa (where you have to leave the country and come back again) on arrival back to Australia, the bridging visa will kick in and he can work while he waits for the 820 to be approved?

I will definitely talk to the agent about the spouse/partner visa. I am doubtful though as, although we have stayed with each other on our respective visits, we haven't been on a joint lease or had joint accounts or anything with solid proof. Usually to ensure you aren't rejected for tourist visas on arrival after multiple visits, you have to say to customs you're just visiting a 'friend'!


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## Skybluebrewer (Jan 15, 2016)

No reason to pay the $7k twice. Either apply for an offshore or apply onshore. Why would anyone apply for the 300 just to marry and apply for the 820 before the 300 grant? Either wait a few months for the grant or don't apply 300 at all.

Yes, have an agent tell you if you have enough evidence for de facto/spouse.

And no your partner would not leave on the tourist visa. If the intention is to apply for an onshore 820, he'd enter on a tourist visa, apply for 820, and then not leave. The bridging visa would kick in when he basically overstays the 3 month limit on the tourist visa, and then no travel rights on the BVA unless a BVB is applied for when needed or the 820 is granted. 

If he left while on the tourist visa before the 3 months ended, the 3 month restarts when he reenters Oz.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Skybluebrewer said:


> No reason to pay the $7k twice. Either apply for an offshore or apply onshore. Why would anyone apply for the 300 just to marry and apply for the 820 before the 300 grant? Either wait a few months for the grant or don't apply 300 at all.
> 
> Yes, have an agent tell you if you have enough evidence for de facto/spouse.
> 
> ...


Thanks Skybluebrewer - I guess I was assuming I would be waiting the 12 months listed on immi each for processing of the 300 and again for the 820, rather than just a few months.


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## Skybluebrewer (Jan 15, 2016)

TazCaz said:


> Thanks Skybluebrewer - I guess I was assuming I would be waiting the 12 months listed on immi each for processing of the 300 and again for the 820, rather than just a few months.


It's not 12 months... too many people get that confused as well.

75% of applications are processed within 12 months. That means any apps processed between 0 and 12 months fall into that percentage. An app processed in 3 months makes up part of that 75% in under 12 months.

You also have to keep in mind that the percentage is an average that includes both high risk and low risk countries...


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Skybluebrewer said:


> It's not 12 months... too many people get that confused as well.
> 
> 75% of applications are processed within 12 months. That means any apps processed between 0 and 12 months fall into that percentage. An app processed in 3 months makes up part of that 75% in under 12 months.
> 
> You also have to keep in mind that the percentage is an average that includes both high risk and low risk countries...


Got it - thanks for the tip, it's good to know. Will wait and see what the RMA can tell me! Thanks again for all your help


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Mish said:


> Do you have Facebook? There is a Facebook group for UK spouse visas and they are very helpful people from what I have been told. My understanding was with the UK fiance visa that you then need to go offshore to apply for the spouse visa but I might be wrong as I don't know alot about UK spouse visas.


Hi Mish, do you know what the group is called? I found one and asked to join, but not sure if it's the right one. Cheers


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## syd (May 13, 2014)

Hi TazCaz,

Here are some of the evidence that I provided for my 820 visa :

Joint phonebill, electric & gas bill in my name for our joint address
Joint private health insurance
Joint purchases for house ( furniture, appliances Etc)
Nominated driver on car insurance
Wills 
Power of attorney 
Joint social activities/as a couple and with other people
Joint travel
Proof of communication while apart 
Gifts exchange at Christmas,birthdays etc
Marriage certificate 
Wedding photos
Some wedding cards we received from friends/family
Form 888


Do you have evidence similar to what I listed? If you don't then you shouldn't apply for a spouse visa. A PMV requires very little evidence, so this route might be best for you.


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

TazCaz said:


> Hi Mish, do you know what the group is called? I found one and asked to join, but not sure if it's the right one. Cheers


Here is the Facebook group for UK spouse visa's: https://www.facebook.com/groups/139807999382936/?fref=nf


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Mish said:


> Here is the Facebook group for UK spouse visa's: https://www.facebook.com/groups/139807999382936/?fref=nf


Greta, thanks Mish. It wasn't the one I had joined, but I have requested to join this one too.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

syd said:


> Hi TazCaz,
> 
> Here are some of the evidence that I provided for my 820 visa :
> 
> ...


Thanks for this list syd. We definitely don't have most of these things, so a PMV looks the way to go. This will be a good list for when we apply for the 820 though - so I will keep it on hand. Cheers!


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## Skybluebrewer (Jan 15, 2016)

TazCaz said:


> Thanks for this list syd. We definitely don't have most of these things, so a PMV looks the way to go. This will be a good list for when we apply for the 820 though - so I will keep it on hand. Cheers!


820 from PMV doesn't require the same as a straight 820 app either. We pretty much submitted the same stuff from the 300, plus marriage cert, new F888s, and our lease and joint bank accounts as the 300 allowed me to move here and do those things.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

Hi again everyone,

Rather than create clutter by starting a new thread, I thought I'd do an update on my original one. I've done loads more research and talked briefly with a migration lawyer and these seem to be our options (we are still deciding which place we will make home for the next little while - UK or Australia). Can one of the wonderful experts (Skybluebrewer? Mish? JanneKL? ampk? sheilae?) who have already helped out with this thread confirm if I have this correct, and if there is anything else I need to consider?

*OPTION 1 - we get married in the UK and live in the UK*

I apply UK fiance visa (£1,464/$2478) while in Australia and wait ~12 weeks for approval. He needs to be earning at least £18,600.
I travel to the UK and we have ~6 months to get married (need to give 28 days notice). I cannot work in this time. 
Can do just registry marriage (costs around £150) if we want and have a celebration later.
Once married, I apply for spouse visa FLR(M) (Further Leave to Remain) (£993/$1681 from within UK).
I wait ~8 weeks for approval and I cannot work in this time.
Once granted, I can work and can then stay for 2 years and 6 months, at which point I renew for another 2 years and 6 months
I pay £200/$338 every year to access NHS, so £200 x 2.5 = £500/$846.
After 5 years' continuous residence in the UK, I can apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain (ILR). As the spouse of a British citizen, I can apply for citizenship as soon as I have ILR and have passed the Life in the UK test. Cannot be absent for more than three months in every year.

*OPTION 2 - we get married in Australia and live in Australia*

He applies for Australian Prospective Marriage Visa (£4134/$7000)
He waits in the UK between 3-5 months for approval.
He moves to Australia and can work immediately on the PMV.
We have ~9 months to get married.
He can then apply for the 820 temporary partner visa (£676/$1145) - can take anywhere from a few days to a few months. On the 820, he can work and access Medicare.
After two years, you can apply for a permanent partner visa.
You need to be on partner visas for four years before you can then apply for citizenship.

*OPTION 3 - we get married in the UK and live in Australia*

Get married in Scotland on a marriage visitor visa (£87)
He applies for a 309 visa while I go back to Australia. 
When 309 visa is approved, he moves to Australia.

*OPTION 4 - we get married in Australia and live in the UK*

He comes to Australia on tourist visa in August. Visa musty not have "no further stay" conditions. He can't work on this visa, but can stay up to 12 months, at three month intervals (must leave Australia every three months, even just to go to NZ)
We get married (We have to give 28 days notice/he doesn't need to be present to give notice).
He goes back to UK.
I apply for the spouse visa and wait ~12 weeks for approval, then move to the UK.
I can work as soon as I arrive on the spouse visa.

***I think what we are looking for is an option to get married officially (registry or very small celebration style) in one place and then move to the other place where we'd have a bigger celebration in 12 months or so.

***I am also potentially trying to find a way for us to both be able to live and work in Australia for a year (I'd like one more year with family/elderly relatives), then move to Scotland. However, the only way to really do that is for him to get the PMV and come to Australia and work, we get married within nine months and then we move back to the UK. But at £4134/$7000 that seems a really expensive way of going about things.
Quite obviously, both country's visa streams are aimed at marrying and then staying in that country - and I think I read Australia used to have it the other way around (PMV was the cheaper visa).

***Can anyone offer any more suggestions or things I might have overlooked? We're basing our decisions on the above, so it would be great to know if I have anything wrong at this point, or if someone thinks one option far outweighs the others...Particularly in light of the recent UK election/Brexit etc etc.

***Having a baby is on the horizon in the near future - so any comments on having a baby in the UK v Australia also very much appreciated.

***He's also concerned about being out of the UK for a while (for example, a year while we live in Australia) and then having to go back and meet the £18,600 requirement. Would he still need to do that if we were married, and had been living together in Australia a year? Does he have to be working at that salary for a certain amount of time? Is this a risky move?

***I'm also curious to know if the UK marriage visa + 309 is even a viable option, given I've read you need a fair bit of evidence for the 309. We'd be married, yes, but don't classify as defacto and wouldn't have any joint finances/bills etc together if I am just going to Scotland to get married and then come back and wait for him to get the 309.

Thank you, in advance, for all your help so far. This is such a wonderful resource - australianforum.com is always at the top of any online searches I'm doing during my research 

Almost there!


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

I would probably start a new thread - not including irrelevant stuff than you and others have possibly put in 9 pages of posts.

Myself and I think the others do not take a personal point of view on your comments or circumstances - but just reply as to what is written (not by whom).

A new thread with a overview and your last "options" would be easier for us to remember your history than re read it all. We read and reply to many posts of similar nature by many persons and often with similar names as an original OP.

Short posts are best for getting info in my opinion.

P.S. none of us are experts or claim to be, we simply know a little more than most in a limited area of migration and are happy to warn/help others to avoid visa rejections if possible.


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## TazCaz (May 27, 2017)

ampk said:


> I would probably start a new thread - not including irrelevant stuff than you and others have possibly put in 9 pages of posts.
> 
> Myself and I think the others do not take a personal point of view on your comments or circumstances - but just reply as to what is written (not by whom).
> 
> ...


Thanks ampk - wasn't sure what the protocol was! On some forums you get in trouble for starting a new thread about a topic you've raised before


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

This is a casual site, don't get in trouble for much. I only got a warning for a very nasty reply to a obvious visa abuser.

It is far easier to reply to a individual than many in a thread, also many posters learn lots after a few posts and comments. This makes terminology often better in later posts. 

Also RMA's seem to only comment on newish threads, not very contaminated ones.


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