# How difficult is it to apply for an onshore relationship visa ourselves?



## Gerryat (Sep 28, 2020)

Hi. I'm Australian and have been with my partner for nearly 6 years. We were registered as a de facto couple in Victoria 2016. Since then we have lived overseas together and now want to return. 

I'd like to think our case is quite strong but just how complex is it to apply by ourselves? I'm not terrible with paperwork, I can see what's needed but it's hard to tell whether it gets very complicated or how very easy to make a error. We would love to spare the 3k usually associated with agents but I understand they'll help us a lot. 

Thanks for any advice.


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## Aussie83 (Oct 15, 2015)

Gerryat said:


> Hi. I'm Australian and have been with my partner for nearly 6 years. We were registered as a de facto couple in Victoria 2016. Since then we have lived overseas together and now want to return.
> 
> I'd like to think our case is quite strong but just how complex is it to apply by ourselves? I'm not terrible with paperwork, I can see what's needed but it's hard to tell whether it gets very complicated or how very easy to make a error. We would love to spare the 3k usually associated with agents but I understand they'll help us a lot.
> 
> Thanks for any advice.


So long as you are good with paperwork and research and take your time and there is no unusual circumstances to throw a wrench in then you should be fine


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## wrussell (Dec 31, 2014)

It might pay you to consult one of the registerd migration agents who posts on this forum for an assessment.


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## Miner (Apr 16, 2017)

You don't need an agent if:
-you can read the website from Home Affairs about the visa process and requirements
-you are in a genuine relationship
-you have some time to prepare everything 
-you can use the search function in this forum and google

The process itself is not complicated and errors are unlikely to make (if you read before clicking buttons).


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## wrussell (Dec 31, 2014)

Do you know how many partner visas are refused each year?
If you want to, work your way through this:
https://www.aat.gov.au/AAT/media/AAT/Files/Statistics/MRD-detailed-caseload-statistics-2019-20.pdf


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## Miner (Apr 16, 2017)

It doesn't give a reason why they are refused. 
I'm sure they have good enough reasons to do so like fraud, laziness, don't read instructions, etc.

Fact is, if somebody can read, is in a genuine relationship, takes care with preparation of documents and has some time nobody needs an agent. 
If anything of that is a problem or for peace of mind an agent might make sense.


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## Brian08 (Sep 24, 2020)

Miner said:


> It doesn't give a reason why they are refused.
> I'm sure they have good enough reasons to do so like fraud, laziness, don't read instructions, etc.
> 
> Fact is, if somebody can read, is in a genuine relationship, takes care with preparation of documents and has some time nobody needs an agent.
> If anything of that is a problem or for peace of mind an agent might make sense.


Spot on.

If you have a solid/long relationship history with your partner and straightforward case eg no criminal convictions etc then I would STRONGLY recommend doing the application yourselves.

My wife & I went through an Registered Migration Agent with very good reviews online and it was all reasonably OK up until the part where you start following them up on updates or suggestions

Problem is once you pay them upfront (which 99.9% of RMA's seek, which is reasonable IMO), what incentive do they have to continue providing you the service after they have received your money? I realise there is a code of conduct they are responsible to provide you but have to say from our experiences and others weve heard from RMA's tend to follow very close to that line to what is expected of them and i recommend to have everything in writing so that you have evidence of contact. Could be a possibility they all take too many clients in (to get $$$$) but then are unable to cope with the demand afterwards.....

I do still recommend an initial meeting which cost us around $250 for about 45mins of advice explaining our situation and what visa to apply for etc.


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## amazingkitkat (Apr 2, 2020)

If your case is straight forward, I could apply it yourself. I’ve done mine myself n got visa granted


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

Brian08 said:


> Miner said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't give a reason why they are refused.
> ...


Hi,
If you can write and read and you can be bothered to upload all your documents, you DO NOT NEED an agent. 
It's a very easy process and an agent doesn't speed it up. 
The waiting time is the same with or without one and at least you control your application and know exactly what you've done if you do it yourself. 
I'm french, have done it all by myself and got my permanent residency in less than 23 months....
Feel to ask questions if needed. 
Vero


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## paulhand (Apr 15, 2017)

Brian08 said:


> Spot on.
> 
> Problem is once you pay them upfront (which 99.9% of RMA's seek, which is reasonable IMO), what incentive do they have to continue providing you the service after they have received your money? I realise there is a code of conduct they are responsible to provide you but have to say from our experiences and others weve heard from RMA's tend to follow very close to that line to what is expected of them and i recommend to have everything in writing so that you have evidence of contact. Could be a possibility they all take too many clients in (to get $$$$) but then are unable to cope with the demand afterwards.....
> 
> I do still recommend an initial meeting which cost us around $250 for about 45mins of advice explaining our situation and what visa to apply for etc.


The "upfront" payment is paid into a clients' or trust account and held in that account until the work is completed, so the incentive is 100% there to get the work done on time as these funds cannot be released until it is. If the work has not been done and the client requests that the contract is ended, the RMA must return any funds deposited that relate to incomplete tasks.

I think it is completely wrong to suggest that "all" RMAs take on too many clients just to "get $$$$". Maybe a few do this, but there are good operators and bad operators in all industries and reputable professionals want to do a good job for all their clients. In my experience most RMAs will go 'above and beyond' for clients rather than do the bare minimum. Of course, in a highly regulated environment, we need to stick to the rules and are governed by legislation in this. Illegal and/or unregistered operators will have no such scruples.

I tell all my potential partner visa clients that if they want to spend the time to do all the background research then of course they could lodge their own application and will likely be successful. However, the number of questions that get asked regularly on this and other forums suggest that the available information is not necessarily easy to find, accurate or helpful. My job is to make the process easier and less stressful, particularly if the clients have better things to do with their time.


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## Gerryat (Sep 28, 2020)

Thanks Folks, I appreciate the tips. 

No doubt about the value of RMA. It would be great to have the assistance. I'd just like to save the 3k at this point in time. We can prove 6 years together quite easily (so many holidays together, visiting her family, my family) and no complications of criminal records or anything. The best thing we did was register our relationship in 2016 in Vic, I think that really helps us.


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

paulhand said:


> Brian08 said:
> 
> 
> > Spot on.
> ...


Sorry paulhand but I fully agree brian08 : when one pays 8000$ for the visa application, one doesn't need to pay any extra money to an agent who does NOT have any power to speed up the process. 
It's such a simple process that I still don't understand why anybody would give one dollar to an agent. 
All questions are answered on the immigration website and a forum like this will help and give tips which are all free and first hand from people who have been through the process. 
Don't waste money!


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

Gerryat said:


> Thanks Folks, I appreciate the tips.
> 
> No doubt about the value of RMA. It would be great to have the assistance. I'd just like to save the 3k at this point in time. We can prove 6 years together quite easily (so many holidays together, visiting her family, my family) and no complications of criminal records or anything. The best thing we did was register our relationship in 2016 in Vic, I think that really helps us.


Hi there 
If you're able to post on this forum, you're able to deal with the application all by yourself and save the RMAs fee. 
As long as your relationship is "genuine and continuous" and to the exclusion of any other, your case is an easy one. 
You need to upload evidences of your relationship, apply for and upload police check, organise the health check.... But nothing that requires a paid 3rd party's action...
I'm french, so English is a second language for me, and that was a walk in the park!!!
I just follows the instructions and went fir it all by myself. 
I got my 820 in 22 months. 
Then I thought I could qualify to a direct 801 (permanent residency) without application nor 24 month waiting period. So I simply sent an email to the case officer who I was in contact with when he requested a fresh police check (they're valid for only 3months) when dealing with my 820 and I got my permanent residency in less than 2 hours. 
Do it yourself, the RMAs fee is better in your pocket!!!


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

Veronique en Australie said:


> Gerryat said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Folks, I appreciate the tips.
> ...


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## MrTambok (Aug 12, 2020)

Veronique in Australia, you are an amateur who has gone through this process once. 
Your story intrigued me, so I checked back over your posts, your post #6255 states that you have been living together for over 20 years, and married for 18, yet your post #2020 of September 21 states you have been living together for 25 years and married for 20!
Which one is the truth?
It is inconsistencies like yours that cause immigration officials to question the veracity of any other information that you provide.

If you make such glaring errors as that you are certainly in no position to offer anyone advice!


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

MrTambok said:


> Veronique in Australia, you are an amateur who has gone through this process once.
> Your story intrigued me, so I checked back over your posts, your post #6255 states that you have been living together for over 20 years, and married for 18, yet your post #2020 of September 21 states you have been living together for 25 years and married for 20!
> Which one is the truth?
> It is inconsistencies like yours that cause immigration officials to question the veracity of any other information that you provide.
> ...


. 
You must think we all dumb... And that's probably how you get clients...

My husband and I met in 1995 in work environment. We became friends. Engaged in 2000 and married in 2002. So 25, 20 and 18 years. 
I tell you that my case officer understood very well. 
One has just to state and explain facts and dates and it's not rocket science. 
No agent us need at all and in doubt, forum like this one helps.


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## MrTambok (Aug 12, 2020)

I certainly do think you are dumb, what clients are you talking about,I am not even an RMA, I am just an ordinary member of this group!
You talk of dates and facts, yet your's don't add up!


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

MrTambok said:


> I certainly do think you are dumb, what clients are you talking about,I am not even an RMA, I am just an ordinary member of this group!
> You talk of dates and facts, yet your's don't add up!


What doesn't add up?
Meeting in 1995 doesn't make 25 years?
Getting engaged in 2000 doesn't make 20 years?
Married in 2002 doesn't make 18 years?
You must have done interests in RMA business, otherwise you wouldn't be so stubborn about it...


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## MrTambok (Aug 12, 2020)

I am a retired engineer and have no interest in Any RMA business. 
Personally I don't care how long you have been married, but you can't say 18 years in one post, and 20 years in another post.
It is that inconsistency that I am talking about.


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

MrTambok said:


> I am a retired engineer and have no interest in Any RMA business.
> Personally I don't care how long you have been married, but you can't say 18 years in one post, and 20 years in another post.
> It is that inconsistency that I am talking about.


When you apply you have to be accurate in your facts and dates of course. And despite your comments I must have been consistent because I got my permanent residency. 
So all your comments are pointless. 
What is 100% true is nobody needs an RMA. 
Wether you like it or not


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## Brian08 (Sep 24, 2020)

paulhand said:


> The "upfront" payment is paid into a clients' or trust account and held in that account until the work is completed, so the incentive is 100% there to get the work done on time as these funds cannot be released until it is. If the work has not been done and the client requests that the contract is ended, the RMA must return any funds deposited that relate to incomplete tasks.
> 
> I think it is completely wrong to suggest that "all" RMAs take on too many clients just to "get $$$$". Maybe a few do this, but there are good operators and bad operators in all industries and reputable professionals want to do a good job for all their clients. In my experience most RMAs will go 'above and beyond' for clients rather than do the bare minimum. Of course, in a highly regulated environment, we need to stick to the rules and are governed by legislation in this. Illegal and/or unregistered operators will have no such scruples.
> 
> I tell all my potential partner visa clients that if they want to spend the time to do all the background research then of course they could lodge their own application and will likely be successful. However, the number of questions that get asked regularly on this and other forums suggest that the available information is not necessarily easy to find, accurate or helpful. My job is to make the process easier and less stressful, particularly if the clients have better things to do with their time.


My experience with our RMA was horrible, whilst we got the desired result, it all seemed very non-committal after the point of payment.

I can say with 100% accuracy until the point we paid, our RMA did not respond to us *once*, *not even once*, from the first time we got in touch with email or phone call. Can you imagine yourself countless emails and phone call followups for updates going unanswered for a period of 2 years?

Another disappointment was that we had a very clear and verbal agreement that the RMA will provide me monthly status updates (which correct me if I'm wrong, is reasonable to ask for according to the RMA expected Code of Conduct) at the start of each month which again not even once was done and i constantly had to call 2-3 times or email 1-2 times to remind them for 11 months...

Whilst I admit there was 1 particular situation where they did come through on an unexpected minor complication (wifes surname changed after we married and the HAP ID generated contained her maiden name at time of lodgement) the rest we could have done ourselves. The most frustrating part was not knowing and losing that trust/faith in the RMA representing us correctly.

Perhaps we just got unlucky but having spoken to other people at work, functions etc there was a trend that most people were in similar shoes to us which begs the question as to why.

I think having someone represent you is certainly a nice to have but not essential. I'm confident its a difficult position to keep up with constant migration changes, volume of applications etc but i strongly feel that there still needs to be a bonus incentive for a successful application.


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## MrTambok (Aug 12, 2020)

My comment is far from pointless, you openly admit that you you have to be accurate in your application , despite the fact that your posts were contradictory .
As for the need for an agent It is debatable, from some of the questions asked here , some people have absolutely no idea what to do.
After all not everyone who applies has been married for 20 years.


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

MrTambok said:


> My comment is far from pointless, you openly admit that you you have to be accurate in your application , despite the fact that your posts were contradictory .
> As for the need for an agent It is debatable, from some of the questions asked here , some people have absolutely no idea what to do.
> After all not everyone who applies has been married for 20 years.


I don't know what your point exactly is. 
When you explain your story on a forum you don't go into such details as when you meet, got engaged and married to the exact length of time especially when it spans over 20 years... But when you do your visa application, of course you're accurate and report the truth. 
Everybody can see that. 
You must have hidden interests to try to point people towards RMA. 
Dont you think people pay enough to the immigration department? 
People need reassurance that applying for a visa is easy. As long as your eligible, you'll get it. No more no less. It's not debatable.


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

Veronique en Australie said:


> MrTambok said:
> 
> 
> > My comment is far from pointless, you openly admit that you you have to be accurate in your application , despite the fact that your posts were contradictory .
> ...


And the title if this thread is "how difficult is it to apply?". Not "do I need a RMA?". 
So the answer is "not difficult at all"


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## taco (Feb 23, 2015)

Veronique en Australie said:


> And the title if this thread is "how difficult is it to apply?". Not "do I need a RMA?".
> So the answer is "not difficult at all"


Veronique,

Not sure why you seem so antagonistic towards the concept of an RMA. I think the answer is entirely subjective and the value of an RMA for partner visas entirely up to the individual. Complexity of situation, level of English, comfort with paperwork, time available, resilience to stress, etc etc. To some it will be 3k well spent, to others it will be 3k wasted.

Your personal situation may have lent itself to managing your own application (my own is not dissimilar and I have also applied without an agent) but having dealt with some more complicated immigration issues in the past I can definitely see the value of professional help if circumstances warrant.


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

taco said:


> Veronique en Australie said:
> 
> 
> > And the title if this thread is "how difficult is it to apply?". Not "do I need a RMA?".
> ...


Taco,

The purpose of this thread is : how difficult is it to apply for an onshore visa?"
It's not about using the services of an RMA or not. 
And the answer to the question is : no it's not difficult at all.

I don't even know how the question of using an RMA came into the discussion. But let's face it, if an applicant is able to come on this forum, he's able to apply. Why would he pay a surcharge of almost 40% for something which is really easy to do.

What people who are hesitant to do it themselves need is to be comforted in their choice to go solo. It is NOT complicated AT ALL. 
Documents will have to be uploaded directly, but they would have to be provided to an RMA anyway. What's the difference between uploading them yourself or forwarding them to an RMA? Nothing but 3000$ difference...

Being successful in getting a visa a such an important issue in someone's life, that it's very easy to make people believing that they have to pay an additional 40% fee. 
We're not talking about few $, we're talking about an outrageous amount of money compare to the cost of the visa (which in itself is already a huge amount...).

If I did it by myself, anybody can do it. And in doubt, people in this forum will answer questions. For free. And it will be correct because we all have been though the process. 
Be confident in yourselves....


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Veronique en Australie said:


> What is 100% true is nobody needs an RMA.
> Wether you like it or not


Utter rubbish!

I use to know a lot more than many on this subject & your comment is not true.

If I were to apply for another partner visa as a sponsor, I would be an idiot not to use a RMA - it would most likely fail and I would need to appeal.

The OP should start the collection of docs and process the application, if they are not confident prior to lodgement then consider using an RMA. But this course depends on the applicants country, they are not all equal.


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

ampk said:


> Veronique en Australie said:
> 
> 
> > What is 100% true is nobody needs an RMA.
> ...


Australia is not a banana republic and treat people from different country equally. 
Using an RMA doesn't affect the outcome. Of your case deserves a visa, you'll get it. With or without an RMA. 
Just scroll a bit further and read Brian's post it's self explanatory. 
Trying to make people believing they will be more successful if they accept a rip-off of almost 40% is insane. 
So once again the question was "how difficult is it to apply for an onshore visa". 
An once again the answer is : not difficult at all.


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## Miner (Apr 16, 2017)

Veronique en Australie said:


> Australia is not a banana republic and treat people from different country equally.
> Using an RMA doesn't affect the outcome. Of your case deserves a visa, you'll get it. With or without an RMA.
> Just scroll a bit further and read Brian's post it's self explanatory.
> Trying to make people believing they will be more successful if they accept a rip-off of almost 40% is insane.
> ...


Nobody was talking about that the RMA effects the outcome. It is only about the way to get to the desired outcome and to get there the RMA can certainly help. As others and I mentioned, it's about time, knowledge of English, motivation, etc..

I also wouldn't say it is not difficult at all. It takes a lot of effort to read through everything and prepare everything plus doing it the right way. Everyone will get confused or questions things at one or many points during the application process. If you don't want that, fine, get the RMA's help. That's what they do.

It is not fair to say they are a rip off or useless. I heard stories about them being not honest and giving people false hopes too but with a bit research you can find a good one.


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

Miner said:


> Veronique en Australie said:
> 
> 
> > Australia is not a banana republic and treat people from different country equally.
> ...


I like your last sentence "with about of research you can find a good RMA". 
You must be kidding me. The simple fact that research is required to find a good RMA shoes how bent it is.

Once again, it is NOT hard not complicated to apply directly. 
Stop scaring people. As long as you can read, write and upload a dicument, there us absolutely necessary need if a very very expensive 3rd party. 
What people need us encouragement to go ahead. Not discouragement. 
If you're capable to be on this forum, you're capable to apply yourself.


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## Miner (Apr 16, 2017)

Veronique en Australie said:


> I like your last sentence "with about of research you can find a good RMA".
> You must be kidding me. The simple fact that research is required to find a good RMA shoes how bent it is.
> 
> Once again, it is NOT hard not complicated to apply directly.
> ...


I have to do research to find a good mechanic to get my car fixed... same story.. nothing new

I am not scaring anyone.. as you might have seen in my other posts here I was just telling him exactly what you just said "As long as you can read, write and upload a dicument, there us absolutely necessary need if a very very expensive 3rd party."..

On another note, I did the whole application myself too and therefore know what I am talking about.


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

Miner said:


> Veronique en Australie said:
> 
> 
> > I like your last sentence "with about of research you can find a good RMA".
> ...


Fixing a car or a burst pipe requires some specific knowledge. 
Applying for a visa doesn't. No more than signing in for this forum and reading carefully what's required....
You wouldn't writing anything else if you wanted to scare applicants....
Once again applying for a visa without RMA is easy.


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## MrTambok (Aug 12, 2020)

Veronique, you have applied successfully for a certain type of visa ONCE!
You are certainly not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, your rabid attacks on RMA adds nothing to your credibility.


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## Sammy J (Oct 26, 2017)

Veronique en Australie said:


> Fixing a car or a burst pipe requires some specific knowledge.
> Applying for a visa doesn't. No more than signing in for this forum and reading carefully what's required....
> You wouldn't writing anything else if you wanted to scare applicants....
> *Once again applying for a visa without RMA is easy*.


For some it is, yes. For others, no. 
You seem to be casting a very wide net.
For me, the whole PMV300 then 820/801 process was easy. I did it all myself with my wife as the applicant. 
My wife, on the other hand, would've had absolutely no idea whatsoever in completing the process and if left up to her most likely would've resulted in a $7k+ donation to the Australian Government.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Veronique en Australie said:


> Australia is not a banana republic and treat people from different country equally.
> U


You assume that the visas are processed in Australia by Australians - My Senator told me that the country my partner was from, raises red flags. What was worse was visas were being processed in a country that was basically at war with my partners country.

To get visitor visas we were told we needed to leave a child behind - that was from an Australian.


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## Brian08 (Sep 24, 2020)

I would think that a case officer would view an application made by an agent favourably in comparison to one that was done by the applicant/sponsor themselves.

Technically, shouldn’t be that way but would not surprise me if it is the case.

Last thing i cant wrap my head around is how much more expensive and long Australian visas (of all types) are in comparisons to US/UK/Canada/Europe etc.


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

Brian08 said:


> I would think that a case officer would view an application made by an agent favourably in comparison to one that was done by the applicant/sponsor themselves.
> 
> Technically, shouldn't be that way but would not surprise me if it is the case.
> 
> Last thing i cant wrap my head around is how much more expensive and long Australian visas (of all types) are in comparisons to US/UK/Canada/Europe etc.


I fully agree with your thoughts on the price of australian visa...

But not the one on the possibility of the case officers favouring applications presented by agents in comparison with one presented by the applicant or his/her sponsor. 
If the applicant has uploaded all requested documents and is answering to questions swiftly, all applications are treated equally.


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## Hania (Jul 21, 2018)

My sister sponsored her husband 309/100 visa and lodged the application 22 months ago. since the initial request for biometrics and health assessment, there has been no contact. They have tried calling immigration office and sent email to Australian embassy in Dubai but so far no response. My question is that at this point would it help to go to an immigration lawyer? I mean would they be more successful in contacting and finding out what is going on with case?


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## kodra (Mar 20, 2020)

Hania said:


> My sister sponsored her husband 309/100 visa and lodged the application 22 months ago. since the initial request for biometrics and health assessment, there has been no contact. They have tried calling immigration office and sent email to Australian embassy in Dubai but so far no response. My question is that at this point would it help to go to an immigration lawyer? I mean would they be more successful in contacting and finding out what is going on with case?


I doubt if immigration lawyer is any use in this case, you might try this https://immi.homeaffairs.gov.au/hel...ner-permanent-processing-centres-enquiry-form


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

kodra said:


> Hania said:
> 
> 
> > My sister sponsored her husband 309/100 visa and lodged the application 22 months ago. since the initial request for biometrics and health assessment, there has been no contact. They have tried calling immigration office and sent email to Australian embassy in Dubai but so far no response. My question is that at this point would it help to go to an immigration lawyer? I mean would they be more successful in contacting and finding out what is going on with case?
> ...


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## Aussie83 (Oct 15, 2015)

Brian08 said:


> Last thing i cant wrap my head around is how much more expensive and long Australian visas (of all types) are in comparisons to US/UK/Canada/Europe etc.


That is also offset by fewer conditions, eg uk & us needs to have a minimum income so people on centerlink would be ineligible.
It's not something that can be compared to that simply.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Brian08 said:


> I would think that a case officer would view an application made by an agent favourably in comparison to one that was done by the applicant/sponsor themselves.
> 
> Technically, shouldn't be that way but would not surprise me if it is the case.
> 
> Last thing i cant wrap my head around is how much more expensive and long Australian visas (of all types) are in comparisons to US/UK/Canada/Europe etc.


A few years ago DIBP got very embarrassed by a secret "Black List" of agents - they even commented they may make a gold list!

Made for very interesting reading and that the Case Officers only got allocated a few hours to "decide" an application. As the Case Officer is normally not the one that signs it off as approved - that is an Australian that signs off on what the Case Officer presents - Second Secretary in most cases and I got to speak to a few in my many applications, they even requested my next application (via a RMA) was directed directly to him. (approval within days after numerous refusals)

I am glad hard work by some have and are improving the corruption/incompetence that has/is happening within our migration system.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Dear Miah,

Thank you for your prompt reply 19th August 2014, and
addressing my concerns with professionalism. I also
received your reply on 26 August 2014 this morning.

I am hoping that you can help me out further. I am a
little confused now as to what documentation is still
required. We have no problem with the
department ensuring the wellbeing and welfare in the
protection of children, and we expect no less.

"The department also takes seriously its obligations in
relation to the protection of children. As you know, one of
the methods we have for protecting children is ensuring that
all persons with parental responsibility for that child
(i.e. legal guardianship or custody), consent to the
movement of that child to Australia for a temporary
permanent basis. We therefore request either a completed
Form 1229 or a signed statement, as well as:"

Does this mean that a new Form 1229 is now required?

Or am I correct in assuming that we need to try and solicit
Mr. XXX's co-operation in providing a copy and
certified translation of another identity? Is another
Statement of Consent from the Ministry of Justice of the
Republic of Kazakhstan required?

"Unfortunately, the signatures on the statements and Form
1229 do not match that on Mr XXX's passport."

We would appreciate an understanding of how this is
determined. Knowing this would alleviate much
distress. We have a copy of that signature and cannot
see the problem only that the passport signature is
undefined which is quite normal on the plastic
coating. The angles and pressures appear to be
consistent. This is why we are concerned that if the
other signatures are rejected on the basis of definition
given surface, we may never get the approval that is needed,
if Mr. XXX cannot provide the right documents for your
approval. 

"We have therefore requested that Ms XXX provides a
copy and certified translation of another Identity document
for Mr XXX which has a signature matching that on the
statements of consent,"

I¹m sure you can appreciate that even though Mr. XXX
is happy to consent to my fiancé and the children to come
and start a new life in Australia, he is also somewhat
unreliable and difficult, often abusive to my
fiancé. This is a difficult situation and
asking him to provide identity papers, problematic.

* I would like to advise, at this stage, that from the date
of your first reply, we immediately contacted Mr XXX to
obtain new documents (Form 1229, Statement of Consent and
any translated ID's), and he advised that he will but only
when he returns to the city. He has, so far, changed
the date he will be in the city - 3
times. His past history indicates his
personal activities are of far greater importance than that
of his concern of his children. He has never supported
them financially even when his mother was supplementing his
income for the benefit of the children and never contacts
them, even on birthdays - they are an inconvenience to
him. We also explained the importance of
the signature to the passport and said if he would be aware
of it and sign accordingly. We have no idea
as to when he may spare some of his time to supply the
documents.

Are there any other translated identity documents that would
be acceptable, if Mr. XXX does not have any such
identification other than the passport?

Is there an alternative method to statement of consent with
a signature matching that on Mr XXX's passport?
Is there an inter-country agreement of physical
identification or a verbal identity confirmation check that
can be used where it can be verified that it was indeed Mr.
XXX who signed the 3 forms of consent already
submitted? We have submitted one or more of
these forms on 5 occasions now and are aware of the penalty
of supplying fake documents and that penalty is enforceable
forever not just in the processing stage.

This is a concern for our distress given the number of
issued signatures that have been rejected on the basis of an
undefined passport signature with one being presented 3 x
previous and accepted before: that being, the
signature on the 1st statement of consent that a visa was
issued.

* In respect to all the matters you have addressed in your
detailed replies, I acknowledge that there are many things
beyond your control.
I have intensively researched the Visa, and in particular
the Partner Visa system as you can appreciate given the
personal investment. Things like the growing
waiting times are directly related to planning levels.
The reduction from 2009 started the ball rolling.
Little attention has been given to this situation by
successive governments since then given other immigration
issues taking precedence. Things like the immiaccount
online applications and central call centres, in my opinion,
are a step forward in the right direction but as all new
things have a few teething issues.
When I came across the time allocation given to Case
Officers I was shocked and can see it puts them under allot
of pressure knowing how much information is supplied in an
application. Consequently, in recent weeks,
I have enlisted the help of professionals and have "in
principle, support" of two political parties currently
lobbying the government. You may be aware of the
Research Report (recently submitted to the government) into
the Partner Visa Program (outlining the many benefits) in
the attempt to reduce the waiting times.

I appreciate your professional and prompt attention to this
matter Miah; the addressing of our concerns and potential
mistakes rectifying what you could. I appreciate that
you could see that my distress and anger in my communication
was out of frustration and I can hear that you are also
hamstrung with the frustration of added numbers seeking
PMV¹s. This is a very complex and frustrating
process of bureaucracy: consequently I acknowledge that
there¹s room for improvement which is done by addressing
concerns and problems as they come up. I will ensure
that if any further problems or issues arise, I will bring
them forward without the frustrated and angry tone of my
previous communication.

Thank you.

Thank you for your attention to this matter at your earliest
convenience.

This situation is complex and difficult: my fiancé
and I appreciate all your efforts, please help us to help
you. I have attached the signatures in concern and also copy
of mine for you to view our concern.

Regards


Aaron


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Veronique en Australie said:


> Fixing a car or a burst pipe requires some specific knowledge.
> Applying for a visa doesn't. No more than signing in for this forum and reading carefully what's required....
> You wouldn't writing anything else if you wanted to scare applicants....
> Once again applying for a visa without RMA is easy.


I fix aircraft for a living - I also have laid claims and copies of visa communication.

I suggest you are giving illegal advice on migration ( I have done that often), I gave my illegal advice to the OP and I stand by that.

I also stand by the fact you talk ShYt - but happy to openly debate why I say that.


----------



## taco (Feb 23, 2015)

Veronique en Australie said:


> Taco,
> 
> The purpose of this thread is : how difficult is it to apply for an onshore visa?"
> It's not about using the services of an RMA or not.


Actually, if you read the opening post the need for the use of an RMA is exactly the purpose of the thread, so you are being more than a little disingenuous here.

Is it easy? It is a little confusing, but with a clear cut application, some time, good English/document/IT skills, a low risk country *and no complications*, it is not too hard and with the help of a forum like this certainly doable.

But even if you fell into the above category, not everybody does.


----------



## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Currently the difficult part is returning to Australia, even more difficult is returning to Australia with your partner.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

From my agent at the time - note the "very careful approach" comment.

Hi Aaron –

I’m very sorry to report to you that DIBP has refused the visitor visa application – the attached just arrived.

My impression after reading the decision record is that their minds were already made up based on the recent refusal, and that they went hunting for any possible ways that they could defend what amounts to a pre-ordained decision. Their statement that “You have failed to submit any new evidence to show that the doubts about your circumstances and intentions are not justified.” is very telling in this regard, and utterly false since we certainly submitted substantial new evidence – from what I can see they’re basically lumping this with the previous refusal and then coming up with reasons to justify their decision and ignoring all the positive aspects of her application and the positive aspects of your invitation and support. I have to wonder whether they even took this application seriously, given how fast the turnaround was and the fact that they seem to justify their entire premise for refusal on aspects of the previous application.

They make absolutely no reference to any of the statements included, and absurdly claim that she has not demonstrated “strong employment” when we sent proof of a long-term job (which they acknowledged, but added the “claimed to be” phrase yet again) at a well-regarded institution, among other things.

The decision record is riddled with “claim to…” which infers an unproven claim, which is outrageous – “claim to be secondary school students”? This is a guilty-until-proven-innocent attitude where doubt is constantly injected into statements even in the face of incontrovertible, official, certified evidence. They also appear to be holding her limited previous international travel against her, rather than giving her credit for it.

Again, I’m sorry to have to deliver this bad news. I don’t know of anything you or I could have done differently or better with this application and we both gave this everything we had. Given the attitude they have taken towards XXX and her children, basically of a “guilty until proven innocent” attitude regarding her intentions to temporarily visit Australia, convicted essentially on what she might do while here, while ignoring overwhelming evidence that supports her and your position. It’s times like this that really get me angry about the “system” and blatantly unfair and wrong decisions like this one.

Please let me know if there’s anything I can do to assist going forward. If you are considering a fiancé or partner visa, I would suggest a very careful approach as, based on this letter, their attitude towards XXX’s claims is one of doubt and concern – that may very well carry over to other Australian visa application she may make. The best way to combat this generally is to spend as much time together with her as possible, whether it’s in her home country or elsewhere.

Best,

Mark


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## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

Veronique en Australie said:


> People need reassurance that applying for a visa is easy. As long as your eligible, you'll get it. No more no less. It's not debatable.


Unfortunately that's not true, many people who meet the eligibility criteria do not get visas for the simple reason that DHA may doubt the validity of the information provided, there may be some unique reasons that apply to the applicant's case, etc. So saying that no one needs an RMA is both false and misleading.

True that many people are able to successfully apply for visas themselves and if someone's situation is quite straightforward such as married for many years with lots of solid supporting evidence, but too often there's some quirk with health, police, previous relationships, periods living apart, family dislike of the partner, etc. and all of these can cause some reason for using a migration agent for assistance.

While it's great that you were able to get your visa without 3rd party assistance, it's misleading to say that applying for a visa is easy and that if someone's eligible they'll get the visa.


----------



## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Veronique en Australie said:


> Fixing a car or a burst pipe requires some specific knowledge.
> Applying for a visa doesn't. No more than signing in for this forum and reading carefully what's required....
> You wouldn't writing anything else if you wanted to scare applicants....
> Once again applying for a visa without RMA is easy.


You seem very quite to my reply's - any reason for the sudden change?


----------



## The Peninsula (Apr 14, 2020)

The number of visas rejected due to not meeting the requirements are shockingly high. A classic example is the Post Study Work Visa, a friend of mine years ago had his visa rejected due to something trivial. Partner visas are way more complicated and are looked at by case officers differently. RMAs are there for a reason and I guess people will be people. It is easy to overlook information or assume certain information is unnecessary when in fact it is critical. I guess that is where an RMA can help by charging a fee. I look at the bigger picture, if you work full time and are planning to definitely settle down in Australia, spend a few thousands more to ensure you are given the right advice by an RMA. Take advice off forums with a large spoon of salt. Most people here speak based on their own personal experience, me included so someone with a complicated case may assume they are in a similar situation and then when it all falls apart it is too late. Hire an agent if you can, it is an investment. If you have a tight budget, then go it alone but put in the effort and time in your application.


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## Veratal (Sep 10, 2020)

Veronique en Australie said:


> Hi,
> If you can write and read and you can be bothered to upload all your documents, you DO NOT NEED an agent.
> It's a very easy process and an agent doesn't speed it up.
> The waiting time is the same with or without one and at least you control your application and know exactly what you've done if you do it yourself.
> ...


Totally agree. I did all paperworks by myself (Indonesian) and my husband (Australian) without using an agent.
Steps: 
-Stage 1: Sub class 820 - TR, Apply by Feb 2014 - BVA, got TR - Oct 2014
-Stage 2: Sub class 801 - PR, got PR - Feb 2017
-Final step: Apply for Australian Citizen by Feb 2018, test and approved - Feb 2019 and ceremony - July 2019 and got passport 10 days after ceremony.
Processing time: TR - 8 months, PR - 26 months and 1 year for Australian Citizen.

DON'T NEED AN AGENT. You can do it by yourselves without paying a cent on commission and save your self thousand $$$$ , as long all documents required are valid.

Best of luck!

Vera


----------



## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

Veratal said:


> Veronique en Australie said:
> 
> 
> > Hi,
> ...


Fully agree with you Vera. 
Glad to read some sensible post as last. 
It is NOT difficult. RMAs are just an unnecessary cost...


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## MrTambok (Aug 12, 2020)

I wonder how many of those who are advocating how easy it is to process a visa have any experience outside of their own?
I would hazard a guess at none.!
If someone follows your simplistic advice, makes a basic error, and is rejected are you prepared to take any responsibility?
A reputable RMA can't guarantee the granting of a visa, however they can prevent the simple but fatal mistakes that first timers often make.
In the end it is everyone's individual choice what they do, but I certainly wouldn't risk my $7000 plus investment, on uneducated, unqualified amateurs!


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## Wisey26 (Mar 31, 2019)

It really depends on your situation. If your partner is from a country similar to Australia like the UK, or USA, then it's pretty straight forward and you can do it yourself. The only exception is if there are no unusual circumstances around your partner (e.g. time spent in prison, overstaying in other countries, previous visa cancellations, connections to the military or intelligence organisations etc etc.) If such unusual circumstances exist, do not do it yourself and find an agent. 

However if your partner is from a country with a completely different linguistic cultural and legal system to Australia, use an agent. My partner is from Russia, and the linguistic, legal and cultural systems are so different there that I could not fill in many sections of the spouse visa application with certainty. The letters of the alphabet are different, the identity documentations are completely different, the number of names people have and the way they change is different, etc etc. I had to use an agent even though i have considerable experience completing different types of visa application forms.


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## kodra (Mar 20, 2020)

We applied for the prospective marriage visa 300 via agent... it was worth it. However the next visa (820/801) we did ourselves, because we were already familiar with the process and had half of the required documents ready from the previous visa application


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## Veratal (Sep 10, 2020)

MrTambok said:


> I wonder how many of those who are advocating how easy it is to process a visa have any experience outside of their own?
> I would hazard a guess at none.!
> If someone follows your simplistic advice, makes a basic error, and is rejected are you prepared to take any responsibility?
> A reputable RMA can't guarantee the granting of a visa, however they can prevent the simple but fatal mistakes that first timers often make.
> In the end it is everyone's individual choice what they do, but I certainly wouldn't risk my $7000 plus investment, on uneducated, unqualified amateurs!


I can understand what you say. If people share their experiences, it doesn't mean that they are amateurs without knowing their background in fact. We just want to give some ideas based on our experiances to some people who want to need advice, of course for free and the choice is up to them.

By the way, I was a Notary/Solicitor in Indonesia for 20 years before for good to Sydney and still learning about Australian Law and the bureaucracy system of AU government anyways.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

Veratal said:


> I can understand what you say. If people share their experiences, it doesn't mean that they are amateurs without knowing their background in fact. We just want to give some ideas based on our experiances to some people who want to need advice, of course for free and the choice is up to them.
> 
> By the way, I was a Notary/Solicitor in Indonesia for 20 years before for good to Sydney and still learning about Australian Law and the bureaucracy system of AU government anyways.


With all due respect they are amateurs, as if they were professionally qualified RMAs the rules of the Forum require them to state their registration number.


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## drew89 (Sep 8, 2020)

I pay $5500 to our agent for 309 100 and i cannot reach him anymore + am very stressed and I have simple question, i know application is submitted long time ago we still waiting. We have very simple case and no children yet but plan to have soon but time and age is running out fast (both 40yr olds)

Is it possible for me to ask agent to give us our application and notify immigration to contact us direct and not go through agent anymore?

Im very angry and stressed 😔😔


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## paulhand (Apr 15, 2017)

Veratal said:


> I can understand what you say. If people share their experiences, it doesn't mean that they are amateurs without knowing their background in fact. We just want to give some ideas based on our experiances to some people who want to need advice, of course for free and the choice is up to them.
> 
> By the way, I was a Notary/Solicitor in Indonesia for 20 years before for good to Sydney and still learning about Australian Law and the bureaucracy system of AU government anyways.


In which case I refer you to s280 of the Migration Act 1958 (Cth).


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

As I admitted Paul, I have been foul of that many times.

I have seen non RMA's give very good and very bad advice over the years.

Never on this forum have I seen a RMA give bad advice, but I have on another forum.

Hope you are doing well your side of the World Paul, our only resident RMA based outside Australia.


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## paulhand (Apr 15, 2017)

ampk said:


> As I admitted Paul, I have been foul of that many times.
> 
> I have seen non RMA's give very good and very bad advice over the years.
> 
> ...


Thanks Aaron, it's heading to winter here and I am missing QLD!


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

I am sure Nick and I will buy you a beer if you can make Cairns.


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## TomAndJerry (Jun 17, 2020)

I found this guide useful.

https://brookearoundtown.com/australian-permanent-residency-through-820-801-partner-visa


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## TomAndJerry (Jun 17, 2020)

Wisey26 said:


> However if your partner is from a country with a completely different linguistic cultural and legal system to Australia, use an agent. My partner is from Russia, and the linguistic, legal and cultural systems are so different there that I could not fill in many sections of the spouse visa application with certainty. The letters of the alphabet are different, the identity documentations are completely different, the number of names people have and the way they change is different, etc etc. I had to use an agent even though i have considerable experience completing different types of visa application forms.


I completely disagree, my partner is Thai which is culturally and linguistically further from Australia than Russia and I had literally zero problems. We had to pay for a birth certificate translation, but that's about it.

I think a more important measure is how fluently you can communicate with your partner to ask for employment, travel and work history for the forms. If there are communication problems then certainly seek help.


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## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

aussiesteve said:


> With all due respect they are amateurs, as if they were professionally qualified RMAs the rules of the Forum require them to state their registration number.


Where are these rules located? I can't find them.


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## paulhand (Apr 15, 2017)

NightCall said:


> Where are these rules located? I can't find them.


Click on 'Rules' at the top of the page ...


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## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

Maggie-May24 said:


> So saying that no one needs an RMA is both false and misleading.


 How is that misleading or false? there is no law or requirement that you use an RMA. So can you explain why you believe it's misleading or false!

Stating that you don't need to use one in absolutely correct.

An easy analogy that people understand in Australia is using a tax agent to do your taxes.

There is no requirement that you use one, but it may or may not benefit you to use one based on your own individual circumstances.

Like tax, if your circumstance is pretty straight forward then you may not need a RMA, if you aren't good at following simple processes or can't be bothered doing it yourself maybe you do.

But unlike taxes you don't get to claim the cost back as an expense.

If you case is complex, you would be better off with a immigration lawyer as RMA can't give legal advice.


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## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

paulhand said:


> Click on 'Rules' at the top of the page ...


Thanks found it.


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

NightCall said:


> Maggie-May24 said:
> 
> 
> > So saying that no one needs an RMA is both false and misleading.
> ...


I fully agree with all you said. 
I feel angry whenever I read that it's difficult to apply for 820/801. 
If you can read and write english (which you should if you intend to live in Australia) and have access to a computer, it's absolutely not rocket science. If you're honest and have nothing to hide, it's only a matter of answering questions and provide official documents. 
And there is always forum like this to answer any questions. 
When I read that some RMA try to scare people who are trying to migrate to Australia, and then charge them thousands, find that so unfair...


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## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

Veronique en Australie said:


> When I read that some RMA try to scare people who are trying to migrate to Australia, and then charge them thousands, find that so unfair...


Some RMA's have a commercial interest to make the process seem harder and more complex than what it is, because that is how they make a living.

People need to be mindful of the intentions of people posting here or giving advice and give weight to that.

Much like this forum has a commercial interest in RMA's being a part of it. Nothing wrong or right with that, as long as they are transparent about it.

I am still waiting to hear the moderators point of view on why they claimed that saying no one needs to use a RMA was "false and misleading" because it's factually incorrect so I am interested to hear why they claimed this?


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## amazingkitkat (Apr 2, 2020)

Totally agree



Veronique en Australie said:


> NightCall said:
> 
> 
> > Maggie-May24 said:
> ...


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## wrussell (Dec 31, 2014)

Miner said:


> It doesn't give a reason why they are refused.
> I'm sure they have good enough reasons to do so like fraud, laziness, don't read instructions, etc.
> 
> Fact is, if somebody can read, is in a genuine relationship, takes care with preparation of documents and has some time nobody needs an agent.
> If anything of that is a problem or for peace of mind an agent might make sense.


About half of partner refusals are reversed by the AAT. Immigration were wrong and the applicant was correct. This does not include applications that were refused, but for one reason or another (financial?) were not appealed. There are plenty of them.

To know what your are on about, use a Freedom of Information request to ascertain the relative success rates of unrepressented applicants or those represented by unregisterd operators cf. those represented by registered migration agents.

It is *most* unlikley for an RMA to have a partner visa refused, unless the client has provided false or misleading information. In 17+ years I have not had a finalised partner application refused.


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## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

NightCall said:


> How is that misleading or false? there is no law or requirement that you use an RMA. So can you explain why you believe it's misleading or false!
> 
> Stating that you don't need to use one in absolutely correct.
> 
> ...


The post I was referring stated:


Veronique en Australie said:


> People need reassurance that applying for a visa is easy. As long as your eligible, you'll get it. No more no less. It's not debatable.


which is a huge over-simplification about partner visas. Sure, lots of people can sufficiently manage their own applications and successfully receive a partner visa. However in many instances people who are eligible for the visa still have one refused.

So I would never, ever say that no one needs a RMA. Many people do need one because their cases aren't straightforward or they may not have time or interest to do enough research - in this case I would certainly recommend they use a RMA to ensure they are submitting a well-prepared application.


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## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

Maggie-May24 said:


> which is a huge over-simplification about partner visas.


But it's neither false or misleading as you have claimed.

Veronique en Australie said it's _"easy"_, which is an opinion, it's not false or misleading of them to hold and state this opinion.

They also said _"As long as your eligible, you'll get it. No more no less. It's not debatable."_ Which is factually accurate as they haven't qualified "eligible" in their statement.

Veronique en Australie was simply giving their opinion on the matter, which is easily seen by the way the quote you have quoted by them is written. Just because you disagree with their opinion doesn't make it "false and misleading".


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## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

NightCall said:


> But it's neither false or misleading as you have claimed.
> 
> Veronique en Australie said it's _"easy"_, which is an opinion, it's not false or misleading of them to hold and state this opinion.
> 
> ...


To say it is easy is indeed her opinion. She's entitled to her opinion and perhaps she found it easy. Easy is a relative term. I'd still caution against saying people don't need a RMA because many people do not find the process easy at all so I think it's clearer if people say "I found it easy" rather than "It is easy".

She also said "As long as your eligible, you'll get it. No more no less. It's not debatable." If that's her opinion, she is entitled to it. However as a fact, not everyone who meets the eligibility criteria gets a visa so it is indeed debatable. So I still would describe that statement as false and misleading.

At the end of the day, everyone has their own opinion as to whether it's easy or difficult to get any type of visa, and whether it's necessary or a good idea to use a RMA. Not everyone will agree, which is fine.


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## amazingkitkat (Apr 2, 2020)

Have u ever download the paper form and have a look the questions they ask and information that u need to gather? It’s quite straight forward and if you have the spare money and u don’t mind spending money n just in case u scared u miss out something then go ahead n find yourself an agent.

English is my second language n I applied it myself and successfully got both TR n PR. 

I meant if u have the spare money n spend it n it’s good for economy. Good luck


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## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

Maggie-May24 said:


> To say it is easy is indeed her opinion. She's entitled to her opinion and perhaps she found it easy. Easy is a relative term. I'd still caution against saying people don't need a RMA because many people do not find the process easy at all so I think it's clearer if people say "I found it easy" rather than "It is easy".


I don't disagree, but given you're a moderator and calling that person's opinion as false and misleading, when it's factually correct, is bullying or abuse of authority.

My personal opinion is that moderators shouldn't comment on post, as you hold a position of authority. They especially shouldn't call out post as false or misleading due to their opinion, happy for them to do so with fact and references, which you have not done.

The post was not as far as I am aware not in breach of a rule, so IMO a moderator should not have called the post false and misleading.

It was a poor way to handle the situation IMO, imagine if visas were processed this way.



Maggie-May24 said:


> She also said "As long as your eligible, you'll get it. No more no less. It's not debatable." If that's her opinion, she is entitled to it. However as a fact, not everyone who meets the eligibility criteria gets a visa so it is indeed debatable. So I still would describe that statement as false and misleading.


That is not factually correct, by law if meet the eligibility criteria you can get the visa, that's what the law states. This does not mean you don't need to prove that you are eligible or that you maybe question/judged on it. But If you are technically eligible you get it. This may not be the case where your from, but Australia in based on the rule of law.



Maggie-May24 said:


> At the end of the day, everyone has their own opinion as to whether it's easy or difficult to get any type of visa, and whether it's necessary or a good idea to use a RMA. Not everyone will agree, which is fine.


Yes but your comment claiming their post was false or misleading was out of line. Just because your a moderator doesn't give you libre cours/free rein to force your opinion on others. Doing so IMO is very poor form.


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## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

amazingkitkat said:


> Have u ever download the paper form and have a look the questions they ask and information that u need to gather? It's quite straight forward and if you have the spare money and u don't mind spending money n just in case u scared u miss out something then go ahead n find yourself an agent.
> 
> English is my second language n I applied it myself and successfully got both TR n PR.
> 
> I meant if u have the spare money n spend it n it's good for economy. Good luck


I understand English is your second language,I picked that up with your posting, your context and meaning was correct.

There maybe better ways to articulate this in english with experience, but it was pretty clear your intention from what you have written.

The issue was a moderator didn't take this into account and decided that you were proving false and misleading opinions due to their own biases.

Frankly they were out of line, and I felt they needed to be called on this behaviour, it's rather astounding that they acted in the way they did.

This is not the way normal people act in Australia, and I don't believe the moderator is an Australian by birth, so I will take that into account, but please don't take personal offence to it. I may well be banned and these posts deleted for sticking up for you, but that is not the Australian way, Australians believe in sticking up for what's right and the under dog, that is what mateship means. No matter the person cost.

What you have written was perfectly OK and most people understood what you wanted to convey.


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## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

amazingkitkat said:


> Have u ever download the paper form and have a look the questions they ask and information that u need to gather?


 The department has spent considerable time, effort and money making the process as user friendly as possible. On the sarcastic side you could say this is because they make a lot of money for the economy.

RMA's are only registered by the government because the government felt there was a need that they regulated. Which kind of says something about the industry, that they can't self regulate.

I personally would never recommend a RMA who boast they have never had an unsuccessful application, as this to me means they only take on the simple/easy cases.

I would want someone with experience with the difficult cases, someone who has the knowledge and experience to fight for you.

Not someone who quits when the going gets hard, or who won't take on a difficult application/fight as IMO they are not the top of their field.


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## taco (Feb 23, 2015)

NightCall said:


> That is not factually correct, by law if meet the eligibility criteria you can get the visa, that's what the law states. This does not mean you don't need to prove that you are eligible or that you maybe question/judged on it. But If you are technically eligible you get it. This may not be the case where your from, but Australia in based on the rule of law.


"If you are technically eligible you get it" does not seem to be true though. If you meet the eligibility criteria you *should* get the visa, but a poorly prepared application, especially in difficult situations, can very well be refused. There have been plenty of posters here (not RMAs) with a lot of personal experience who attest to that fact. Rule of law is very different from individual cases being judged by case officers with limited time and having to make a judgement based on the materials presented. The fact that many refusals get appealed and overturned is an indication that refusals happen in situations where they shouldn't. So that is a fact.

Personally I was comfortable making the application with the support of a website like this one (but I would likely have done poorly without this resource!). But my situations falls in the straightforward category.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

NightCall said:


> It was a poor way to handle the situation IMO, imagine if visas were processed this way.


Fact is they have been, and still are.


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## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

NightCall said:


> I don't disagree, but given you're a moderator and calling that person's opinion as false and misleading, when it's factually correct, is bullying or abuse of authority.
> 
> My personal opinion is that moderators shouldn't comment on post, as you hold a position of authority. They especially shouldn't call out post as false or misleading due to their opinion, happy for them to do so with fact and references, which you have not done.
> 
> ...


I've never seen a forum where moderators don't also post their own opinion Fortunately the forum administrators here also don't have any issue with it.


----------



## MrTambok (Aug 12, 2020)

NightCall said:


> I don't disagree, but given you're a moderator and calling that person's opinion as false and misleading, when it's factually correct, is bullying or abuse of authority.
> 
> My personal opinion is that moderators shouldn't comment on post, as you hold a position of authority. They especially shouldn't call out post as false or misleading due to their opinion, happy for them to do so with fact and references, which you have not done.
> 
> ...


I am neither a RMA or a Moderator, but I am an avid reader of this group.
Waiting for some action on my own partner's visa application I have plenty of time to spare, so I have been reading back over your previous posts, and I have come to the conclusion you are extremely generous with your lack of knowledge.
How many successful partner visa's have you been involved with? I would guess none, am I correct? Most amateur contributors here have had many years dealing with the Department , the RMAs have dealt with hundreds if not thousands of visas,
Yet you freely air your ignorance here in public, your most recent statement regarding the issuing of visas demonstrates your complete lack of comprehension of the real situation, ( i have spent hour after hour reading through previous posts, and they all have the same thread, there is no rhyme, reason or consistency in the issuing of visas.)
After reading your posts I am reminded of the old legal maxim: " A man who acts as his own counsel has a fool for their client"


----------



## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

taco said:


> There have been plenty of posters here (not RMAs) with a lot of personal experience who attest to that fact. Rule of law is very different from individual cases being judged by case officers with limited time and having to make a judgement based on the materials presented. The fact that many refusals get appealed and overturned is an indication that refusals happen in situations where they shouldn't. So that is a fact.


Immigration officers are bound strictly by the law, their judgement is based on the meeting the eligibility criteria under law. The AAT can take other matters into consideration that an Immigration officer can not.

That's why they are call the Appeals Tribunal they can undertake a independent merits review of a administrative decisions made by the Australian Government.

Merit is not the same as applying the law as its stands which the department must do.


----------



## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

Maggie-May24 said:


> I've never seen a forum where moderators don't also post their own opinion Fortunately the forum administrators here also don't have any issue with it.


Still does not make it a major conflict of interest, a fair and honest person would abstain from doing so.

Its standard practise in Government and regulatory roles and IMO its shows a level of unprofessionalism and like I have show, opens you up to be accused of by baised, which you really can't defend.


----------



## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

MrTambok said:


> How many successful partner visa's have you been involved with? I would guess none, am I correct?


No you are not correct Mr Tambok (I do hope you understand what your username means), I maybe new to this forum and to you, that is just your perspective on the situation and a rather limited one at that as lot of people would know my username.

There is no greater danger than underestimating your opponent.



MrTambok said:


> Most amateur contributors here have had many years dealing with the Department , the RMAs have dealt with hundreds if not thousands of visas,


I am no amateur, I just play for a different team.



MrTambok said:


> Yet you freely air your ignorance here in public, your most recent statement regarding the issuing of visas demonstrates your complete lack of comprehension of the real situation


Would help to understand what you are talking about if you quoted this ignorance that which you claim! or at least reference it.

Otherwise your post just seems like gibberish.



MrTambok said:


> i have spent hour after hour reading through previous posts, and they all have the same thread, there is no rhyme, reason or consistency in the issuing of visas.)
> After reading your posts I am reminded of the old legal maxim: "


I have 13 post in total on this forum! 3 of them posted today after your post. Why has it taken you _"hour after hour reading through previous posts"_ to read them?

If it's taken you that long I would suggest a RMA to assist you with your application.


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## Aztec (May 5, 2018)

Most people don't need RMA's, if you have the basic skills to fill out an application and prepare documents, most can do it themselves and not spend thousands of dollars unnecessarily. They will then argue that you are risking $7000+ in fees, bla, bla, bla. It's often a scare tactic as I have seen how those who are fraught with anxiety respond. 

There is a lot that can be gleaned on this forum, but a few of the regulars make it unpleasant with their condescending attitudes, such as the moderator who was rude to you. She did the same to me and others and subsequently turned us off this forum. Not typical of a Canadian either, most have better manners.


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## Aztec (May 5, 2018)

Veronique en Australie said:


> Sorry paulhand but I fully agree brian08 : when one pays 8000$ for the visa application, one doesn't need to pay any extra money to an agent who does NOT have any power to speed up the process.
> It's such a simple process that I still don't understand why anybody would give one dollar to an agent.
> All questions are answered on the immigration website and a forum like this will help and give tips which are all free and first hand from people who have been through the process.
> Don't waste money!


Well said, no reason to waste money. Some applicants may have language issues, but other than that it's lengthy but not that complicated. It's all spelled out pretty clearly, save for the odd Aussie phrasing here and there.


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

Aztec said:


> Veronique en Australie said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry paulhand but I fully agree brian08 : when one pays 8000$ for the visa application, one doesn't need to pay any extra money to an agent who does NOT have any power to speed up the process.
> ...


Couldn't agree more!


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## Aztec (May 5, 2018)

Veronique en Australie said:


> Couldn't agree more!


I have not been here for quite some time but if you search some of my old posts I linked the education requirements for RMA's and other related info. A moderator got upset about them and either deleted or moved them. They were purely informative, but it seemed to "threaten" some of those flogging their services. It became apparent that there was another agenda here....


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## paulhand (Apr 15, 2017)

NightCall said:


> Immigration officers are bound strictly by the law, their judgement is based on the meeting the eligibility criteria under law. The AAT can take other matters into consideration that an Immigration officer can not.
> 
> That's why they are call the Appeals Tribunal they can undertake a independent merits review of a administrative decisions made by the Australian Government.
> 
> Merit is not the same as applying the law as its stands which the department must do.


This is factually incorrect. The AAT is bound to implement the law in exactly the same way as decision makers at the Department. You misunderstand the concept of merits review ... which just means that (to quote the AAT itself) "we take a fresh look at the relevant facts, law and policy and arrive at our own decision. We must make the legally correct decision or, where there can be more than one correct decision, the preferable decision."

The only people who can reinterpret the law are judges, which is why the next step after the AAT is to go to court.


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## paulhand (Apr 15, 2017)

NightCall said:


> I am no amateur, I just play for a different team.


In which case, why not disclose your identity and credentials in the same way as the professionals who give freely of their time and knowledge on this forum do?



NightCall said:


> Still does not make it a major conflict of interest, a fair and honest person would abstain from doing so.
> 
> Its standard practise in Government and regulatory roles and IMO its shows a level of unprofessionalism and like I have show, opens you up to be accused of by baised, which you really can't defend.


This is not a publically funded information service, it's a forum helpfully provided, free, by its owners. I have no idea whether they are also the moderators. In any case it's their playground and therefore their rules. You don't have to stop by if you don't like it here.



Aztec said:


> Most people don't need RMA's,


Most people don't need most of the things or services they are happy to pay for. My clients hire me through choice, not coercion, because they prefer to do other things with their time than sort through reams of maybe right/maybe wrong information on the internet.

I've been around this forum for a couple of years. It's usually a nice place to hang out and talk migration issues and stories. It's well moderated; the mods and most of the regular contributors are knowledgeable and helpful; and the regular RMAs are generous with their time and professional knowledge/experience. I can assure you that none of the RMAs who post here regularly are "flogging" anything. We have no need to.


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## Aztec (May 5, 2018)

Veronique en Australie said:


> I fully agree with all you said.
> I feel angry whenever I read that it's difficult to apply for 820/801.
> If you can read and write english (which you should if you intend to live in Australia) and have access to a computer, it's absolutely not rocket science. If you're honest and have nothing to hide, it's only a matter of answering questions and provide official documents.
> And there is always forum like this to answer any questions.
> When I read that some RMA try to scare people who are trying to migrate to Australia, and then charge them thousands, find that so unfair...


Exactly to my point. Friendly advice is welcome and generous and all that, (that's the point of most forums, no?) but this forum is used by some RMA's (not all) to troll for new clients, often unsuspecting applicants whose mother tongue is not English. They claim they don't need the business yet they constantly 'suggest' that folks contact them for further consultation. It is glaringly transparent with hundreds of examples in past posts. There should be a rule in place preventing any attempt at solicitation or contact by RMA's. Just leave the list of them in the sticky and refer to anyone who queries to that post.


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## Aztec (May 5, 2018)

paulhand said:


> This is not a publically funded information service, it's a forum helpfully provided, free, by its owners.


It is most certainly not a public forum. This is one of many forums owned by Verticalscope, a media company founded over 20 years ago and is headquartered in Toronto. It was acquired by Torstar a few years back, the parent company of the Toronto Star, one of the largest newspapers in Canada.


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## Aztec (May 5, 2018)

wrussell said:


> It might pay you to consult one of the registerd migration agents who posts on this forum for an assessment.


It would seem the agents want to get paid, not the other way around....


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## Aztec (May 5, 2018)

MrTambok said:


> A reputable RMA can't guarantee the granting of a visa, however they can prevent the simple but fatal mistakes that first timers often make.
> In the end it is everyone's individual choice what they do, but I certainly wouldn't risk my $7000 plus investment, on uneducated, unqualified amateurs!


Hahaha, that is hilarious. So you won't risk your $7000, you'll add another $3000 and risk $10,000....good logic. And what would you know about the education of those posting here? SMH....


----------



## Aztec (May 5, 2018)

drew89 said:


> I pay $5500 to our agent for 309 100 and i cannot reach him anymore + am very stressed and I have simple question, i know application is submitted long time ago we still waiting. We have very simple case and no children yet but plan to have soon but time and age is running out fast (both 40yr olds)
> 
> Is it possible for me to ask agent to give us our application and notify immigration to contact us direct and not go through agent anymore?
> 
> Im very angry and stressed &#128532;&#128532;


Well if not a registered agent then you run this risk. But yes one has to be careful with any agent as they are not lawyers by any stretch of the imagination and there appear to be many hucksters out there.


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

Aztec said:


> paulhand said:
> 
> 
> > This is not a publically funded information service, it's a forum helpfully provided, free, by its owners.
> ...


Forum like this shouldn't have RMAs writing on it because the only thing that matters to them is getting business. 
Paulhand, while trying to show "some helpful advise", always seems to scare potential applicants so that they end up thinking they need a RMA. They're biaist. 
If someone wants a RMA, they know where to find them. Forum should have applicants only helping each others. Otherwise is becomes a commercial enterprise...


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## MrTambok (Aug 12, 2020)

NightCall said:


> No you are not correct Mr Tambok (I do hope you understand what your username means), I maybe new to this forum and to you, that is just your perspective on the situation and a rather limited one at that as lot of people would know my username.
> 
> There is no greater danger than underestimating your opponent.
> 
> ...


I say you are an amateur, as if you were a professional you would be required by the rules of the forum to state your registration number.
As for Mr Tambok, I am well versed in both its regular and slang meaning, after all my fiancee is a Pinay!


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## MrTambok (Aug 12, 2020)

Veronique en Australie said:


> Forum like this shouldn't have RMAs writing on it because the only thing that matters to them is getting business.
> Paulhand, while trying to show "some helpful advise", always seems to scare potential applicants so that they end up thinking they need a RMA. They're biaist.
> If someone wants a RMA, they know where to find them. Forum should have applicants only helping each others. Otherwise is becomes a commercial enterprise...


You are entitled to your opinion, however others think otherwise, if you feel the forum is not to your liking leave , I doubt you will be missed!


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## MrTambok (Aug 12, 2020)

Aztec said:


> Hahaha, that is hilarious. So you won't risk your $7000, you'll add another $3000 and risk $10,000....good logic. And what would you know about the education of those posting here? SMH....


I know for sure that those who offer advice without stating their RMA number are AMATEURS.


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## taco (Feb 23, 2015)

NightCall said:


> Immigration officers are bound strictly by the law, their judgement is based on the meeting the eligibility criteria under law. The AAT can take other matters into consideration that an Immigration officer can not.


Paul already addressed this better than I ever could. But it just goes to show how RMAs, who contrary to some actually know what they are talking about, add value when things are not so simple


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## wrussell (Dec 31, 2014)

paulhand said:


> In which case, why not disclose your identity and credentials in the same way as the professionals who give freely of their time and knowledge on this forum do?
> 
> This is not a publically funded information service, it's a forum helpfully provided, free, by its owners. I have no idea whether they are also the moderators. In any case it's their playground and therefore their rules. You don't have to stop by if you don't like it here.
> 
> ...


Sometimes we are flogging a dead horse.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

In early 2018 the Department of Home Affairs exposed an alarmingly high visa refusal rate for both offshore and onshore partner visa applications where a migration professional was not appointed.

The statistics for the 2015/16 financial year indicated 63.4% of partner visas lodged did not appoint a migration agent, while in the 2016/17 financial year it was 59.6%.

The visa refusal rates for unrepresented applicants was astounding.

In the 2015/16 financial year it was an incredible 53.8%. In 2016/17, it was not much better at 47%.* Average both years and it comes to just above half of all DIY partner visa applications being refused.
*

Source - https://www.lydenlaw.com.au/an-aust...stics for the 2015,it was an incredible 53.8%.


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## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

paulhand said:


> This is factually incorrect. The AAT is bound to implement the law in exactly the same way as decision makers at the Department. You misunderstand the concept of merits review ... which just means that (to quote the AAT itself) "we take a fresh look at the relevant facts, law and policy and arrive at our own decision. We must make the legally correct decision or, where there can be more than one correct decision, the preferable decision."


No its not incorrect, you have even provided the "facts" to show this in your answer when you quoted the AAT itself.

Tribunal must make the "correct or preferable decision" This option isn't available to the immigration officers.

There are a number of other considerations that the Tribunal can also use but thats besides the point as you have proved the "facts" to show my statement was correct already and I won't bore people with the functions of the AAT.



paulhand said:


> The only people who can reinterpret the law are judges, which is why the next step after the AAT is to go to court.


The very function of the AAT is to interpret parts of the law, it's just unlike court the parties aren't bound by it.


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## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

paulhand said:


> In which case, why not disclose your identity and credentials in the same way as the professionals who give freely of their time and knowledge on this forum do?


Because I choose not to.

Also I am not using this forum to solicit business.



paulhand said:


> This is not a publically funded information service, it's a forum helpfully provided, free, by its owners. I have no idea whether they are also the moderators. In any case it's their playground and therefore their rules. You don't have to stop by if you don't like it here.


Why so threatened? A forum is a place to exchange ideas and views, and often people have differing views.


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## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

ampk said:


> In early 2018 the Department of Home Affairs exposed an alarmingly high visa refusal rate for both offshore and onshore partner visa applications where a migration professional was not appointed.
> 
> The statistics for the 2015/16 financial year indicated 63.4% of partner visas lodged did not appoint a migration agent, while in the 2016/17 financial year it was 59.6%.
> 
> ...


To bad the actual facts don't support this.

Represented applicants had a higher refusal rate in 2016/17 then unrepresented applicants as they do in most years.

Refusal rates for both have sat around the 7%-12% mark for a number of years.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

NightCall said:


> Refusal rates for both have sat around the 7%-12% mark for a number of years.


So roughly 1 in every 10 applications are refused?

So having a crack at something most have never done before is a good idea?

Many applications done by RMA's were never simple to start with and often after a previous failed DYI refusal.

I know several of the RMA's on here have 100% success rated after decades of applications.

I know one has purposely submitted an application that would not be successful as part of an over all strategy that achieved the required result.

I have done a DYI that had the "No Further Stay" condition, I also have done a PMV but with a RMA review service I did the following 820 application DYI.

I have worked very closely with one RMA and he certainly helped turn around some 600 refusals with many hours of work for a fixed reduced fee.

Sadly an applicants birth place raises - as my Federal Member of Parliament was told by IMMI "Red Flags" and they get treated differently.

Very hard to find on the net now, but IMMI held a little black book - they still would they just put it in a different draw.


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## MrTambok (Aug 12, 2020)

Aztec said:


> I would contend that you really don't know, rather you just assume. I can't argue with irrational comments....


And I assume with good reason, it is against the forum rules not to post your Credentials if you are an RMA. 
Are you suggesting that the people in question are really RMAs who are ignoring the forum rules?


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## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

ampk said:


> So roughly 1 in every 10 applications are refused?
> 
> So having a crack at something most have never done before is a good idea?


Well the statistics show that it is a good idea, even better is you don't use an agent. Especially seeing how you have shown how RMA are perfectly happy to lie and use scare tactics to get people to use them.

As I said before, the simple fact that RMA's need to be regulated in the first place, shows what sort of industry they are that the government has the need to regulate them. You have given a great example that you believed hook line and sinker until I pointed out it was incorrect, while at the same time claiming not to be new to the process.



ampk said:


> Many applications done by RMA's were never simple to start with and often after a previous failed DYI refusal.


I don't dispute that maybe the case



ampk said:


> I know several of the RMA's on here have 100% success rated after decades of applications.


So you mean the ones that avoid the hard cases. As I said earlier I would recommend people avoid agents that claim a 100% (or near to) success rate.



ampk said:


> I know one has purposely submitted an application that would not be successful as part of an over all strategy that achieved the required result.


Sometimes its better to have the AAT decide the outcome as despite what an RMA has claimed here, the AAT have the ability to take other things into account that the department cannot.



ampk said:


> Sadly an applicants birth place raises - as my Federal Member of Parliament was told by IMMI "Red Flags" and they get treated differently.
> 
> Very hard to find on the net now, but IMMI held a little black book - they still would they just put it in a different draw.


No little black book, it's simply profiling risks.


----------



## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Originally Posted by ampk View Post
So roughly 1 in every 10 applications are refused?

So having a crack at something most have never done before is a good idea?
Well the statistics show that it is a good idea, even better is you don't use an agent. Especially seeing how you have shown how RMA are perfectly happy to lie and use scare tactics to get people to use them.

My REPLY:- As you agree they take hard cases - I never said LIE (YOU DID) I said part of a strategy or similar NOR DID I SAY scare tactics in my posts - your words!! Please quote what I say not your beliefs or opinions on what I actually posted. 

As I said before, the simple fact that RMA's need to be regulated in the first place, shows what sort of industry they are that the government has the need to regulate them. You have given a great example that you believed hook line and sinker until I pointed out it was incorrect, while at the same time claiming not to be new to the process.

I work in aviation it is heavily regulated - look up Glen Buckley on PPRuNE or GoFundMe as to if that is good regulation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ampk View Post
Many applications done by RMA's were never simple to start with and often after a previous failed DYI refusal.
I don't dispute that maybe the case


My Reply = As I said above- You agree but just want to troll.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ampk View Post
I know several of the RMA's on here have 100% success rated after decades of applications.
So you mean the ones that avoid the hard cases. As I said earlier I would recommend people avoid agents that claim a 100% (or near to) success rate.

My Reply - No they take extra time and specialise in the hard case areas, often by location or issue such as medical or character. If not they refer to other RMA's that do that specialty. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ampk View Post
I know one has purposely submitted an application that would not be successful as part of an over all strategy that achieved the required result.
Sometimes its better to have the AAT decide the outcome as despite what an RMA has claimed here, the AAT have the ability to take other things into account that the department cannot.

MY REPLY - Who said the AAT decided that - Again I NEVER DID.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ampk View Post
Sadly an applicants birth place raises - as my Federal Member of Parliament was told by IMMI "Red Flags" and they get treated differently.

Very hard to find on the net now, but IMMI held a little black book - they still would they just put it in a different draw.
No little black book, it's simply profiling risks

My reply-

Rubbish there is still evidence on the net, even on this site if you care to look. It was a freedom of information that exposed it. So you yourself can request the black book info if you want - rather than an uniformed denial it existed.


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

MrTambok said:


> NightCall said:
> 
> 
> > Only registered migration agents are required to state their registration number.
> ...





NightCall said:


> ampk said:
> 
> 
> > So roughly 1 in every 10 applications are refused?
> ...





NightCall said:


> MrTambok said:
> 
> 
> > I have better things to do than wait for your puerile responses.
> ...





MrTambok said:


> NightCall said:
> 
> 
> > And yet here we are.
> ...


How did we go from visa application, to a word translation????
The fact is RMAs are stubborn about making sure potential visa applicants think they cannot do it without them. That's their way of stealing money and that's their way of living. 
It's up to all of us who have successfully applied to reassure future applicants that it's really a matter of answering questions honestly and if the case is genuine it will take time but it will be processed. 
RMAs have no power. They cannot change a lost case to a successful one. But they'll fir sure present a bill!


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## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

Veronique en Australie said:


> How did we go from visa application, to a word translation????!


The whole visa thing is a bit slow at the moment due to the pandemic. Just filling in time.

But righto back on topic.

I have already given the information that shows a person is statically better off doing an application by themselves then using an agent.

I could dig up the official stats that show this if people are interested.


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## Sammy J (Oct 26, 2017)

NightCall said:


> I have already given the information that shows a person is statically better off doing an application by themselves then using an agent.
> 
> I could dig up the official stats that show this if people are interested.


Yeah that might be the best idea. Your "information" is just bla bla bla without the stats to back them up. 
Not saying you're wrong but you are yet to be proven right


----------



## Sammy J (Oct 26, 2017)

Veronique en Australie said:


> How did we go from visa application, to a word translation????
> The fact is RMAs are stubborn about making sure potential visa applicants think they cannot do it without them. That's their way of stealing money and that's their way of living.
> It's up to all of us who have successfully applied to reassure future applicants that it's really a matter of answering questions honestly and if the case is genuine it will take time but it will be processed.
> RMAs have no power. They cannot change a lost case to a successful one. But they'll fir sure present a bill!


If you're such an expert on all things relating to immigration to Australia why dont you answer more questions that people come on here and ask??

You just come on here to bag out RMAs...


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## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

Sammy J said:


> Yeah that might be the best idea. Your "information" is just bla bla bla without the stats to back them up.
> Not saying you're wrong but you are yet to be proven right


https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/foi/files/2018/fa180700438-document-released.PDF


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## Veronique en Australie (Sep 21, 2020)

Sammy J said:


> Veronique en Australie said:
> 
> 
> > How did we go from visa application, to a word translation????
> ...


Do you have an interest in defending RMAs?

And before writing anything, you should check you facts... I have replied and helped people who are asking questions in more than half of my post... 
You would you a very good RMA (if you're not one???)


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Veronique en Australie said:


> The fact is RMAs are stubborn about making sure potential visa applicants think they cannot do it without them. That's their way of stealing money and that's their way of living.


This deserves reporting or supply facts to your claim.


----------



## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

ampk said:


> This deserves reporting or supply facts to your claim.


You gave a very good example of RMA's doing this with your post about refusal percentages. I have supplied you with the facts.

But you have neither acknowledged your mistaken claims or edited/removed your post.


----------



## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

NightCall said:


> The whole visa thing is a bit slow at the moment due to the pandemic. Just filling in time.
> 
> But righto back on topic.
> 
> ...


ONLY agreed is RMA's take on previous refused and difficult cases. That distorts numbers. P.S when a DYI gets refused and goes to AAT are they still a DYI or have an agent?

So an apples n oranges defence - many good RMA's say go alone if very simple and straight forward (often after a free consult - money is in work visas).


----------



## Sammy J (Oct 26, 2017)

Veronique en Australie said:


> Do you have an interest in defending RMAs?
> 
> And before writing anything, you should check you facts... I have replied and helped people who are asking questions in more than half of my post...
> You would you a very good RMA (if you're not one???)


Im not an RMA nor have i ever used one
I just dont have a problem with them or the people who use them.
Its a personal choice


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

NightCall said:


> You gave a very good example of RMA's doing this with your post about refusal percentages. I have supplied you with the facts.
> 
> But you have neither acknowledged your mistaken claims or edited/removed your post.


I did reply to that. Can/Did you read?


----------



## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

ampk said:


> I did reply to that. Can/Did you read?


You replied, but didn't acknowledge or correct your mistaken post.

You just moved on to further statements when I said it was incorrect.

You were clearly wrong, although not really your fault as you relied on false information from a RMA.

But still it's a bit rich calling others out for the very thing you do yourself.


----------



## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

Sammy J said:


> Heavily involved lol. I just posted on there same as you did.


Except you continued to post there once it was exposed, unlike others.



Sammy J said:


> I dont have a dog in the fight of RMA vs no RMA. Ive never used one but dont care if people do


As you know neither do I.


----------



## Sammy J (Oct 26, 2017)

NightCall said:


> Except you continued to post there once it was exposed, unlike others.
> 
> .


Thats because i didn't care

I was just answering as best i could to peoples questions.

Not sure why thats a big deal to you


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## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

ampk said:


> ONLY agreed is RMA's take on previous refused and difficult cases.


So you don't believe the official stats? But rather some website of a RMA!



ampk said:


> P.S when a DYI gets refused and goes to AAT are they still a DYI or have an agent?


Much like what we are currently discussing, there is no legal requirement to be represented.

Again I wouldn't recommend using an RMA in these situations.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

NightCall said:


> You replied, but didn't acknowledge or correct your mistaken post.
> 
> You just moved on to further statements when I said it was incorrect.
> 
> ...


Ok happy to debate you.

Lay your clear claims. I am rusty but think I still know more than you have learnt.

Rule make one (1) claim comment at a time.

Pretty simple rule.

Regards
Aaron.


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## NightCall (Apr 20, 2019)

ampk said:


> Ok happy to debate you.
> 
> Lay your clear claims. I am rusty but think I still know more than you have learnt.
> 
> ...


In post #104 you posted a this claim



ampk said:


> * Average both years and it comes to just above half of all DIY partner visa applications being refused.
> *


I posted the official stats from the department which shows its actually around 7%.

*Claim:* You failed to admit to posting incorrect information when presented with the facts, or to use the words of a Moderator here, you posted _"false and misleading" _ information and won't admit to such.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

NightCall said:


> In post #104 you posted a this claim
> 
> I posted the official stats from the department which shows its actually around 7%.
> 
> *Claim:* You failed to admit to posting incorrect information when presented with the facts, or to use the words of a Moderator here, you posted _"false and misleading" _ information and won't admit to such.


My memory was you gave a range of the %'s possibly over a several year period.

Please resupply your data.

Please refrain from using others words, that have zero to do with me.

If I am supplying false and misleading - please supply that "respectfully".

Regards
Aaron Cook.


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## wrussell (Dec 31, 2014)

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/539867-never-argue-with-an-idiot-they-will-drag-you-down


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## Aztec (May 5, 2018)

NightCall said:


> Hi Sammy, long time no see.
> 
> Giving immigration advice in Australia is illegal if you're not a RMA.
> 
> ...


That's the irony of this forum, some of the moderators break the rules by giving advice, yet tell others not to...because they are breaking the rules.....go figure.


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## Sammy J (Oct 26, 2017)

Aztec said:


> That's the irony of this forum, *some of the moderators break the rules by giving advice*, yet tell others not to...because they are breaking the rules.....go figure.


Which rule would that be??

19: Messages posted at this site are the sole opinion and responsibility of the poster. You are responsible for your own posts and agree not to hold AustraliaForum.com liable for any messages posted.* Periodically the Moderators of AustraliaForum.com may post comments*. These comments may not necessarily reflect the opinions of AustraliaForum.com, or its owners.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

NightCall said:


> Refusal rates for both have sat around the* 7%-12% mark for a number of years.*


Yes these are your words - I rounded it to "around 10%"

I could use 9.5% if you prefer.

Regardless you state that in total 9.5 applications in every 100 are refused.

That is a pretty big risk - regardless of agent or not.

A mate of mine said listen to everyone, you will learn something from the biggest of fools.

I am listening!


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## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

As this thread has moved well beyond the original topic, I will close it. I hope the OP was able to get some value from the debate. I think it can be summarised as some people find RMAs useful/necessary and others do not. Many forum members appreciate the time that RMAs give to post and answer questions and provide information.


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