# Why Austrlaia Strict for Asian English Standards



## AQEEL

I am a Pakistani Doctor(MBBS 1992) ,recently working in UAE as GP.
I am looking to move to Australia since long.But have failed due to IELTS 7+7 in all compulsion.
I have 7 overall but less in reading(6) and writing(6).This score too will expire this october 2010.I want to move to Australia on 422 Subclass visa for GP,s and start my supervised clinical practice in area of need or workforce shortage areas till I improve my IELTS(If needed) and of course do my AMC exam and track my career for General Practitioner.

I shall be thankful doctor if somebody can guide me and decrease my disappointment.


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## Wanderer

AQEEL said:


> I am a Pakistani Doctor(MBBS 1992) ,recently working in UAE as GP.
> I am looking to move to Australia since long.But have failed due to IELTS 7+7 in all compulsion.
> I have 7 overall but less in reading(6) and writing(6).This score too will expire this october 2010.I want to move to Australia on 422 Subclass visa for GP,s and start my supervised clinical practice in area of need or workforce shortage areas till I improve my IELTS(If needed) and of course do my AMC exam and track my career for General Practitioner.
> 
> I shall be thankful doctor if somebody can guide me and decrease my disappointment.


Australia does require good standards of english Aqeel and it is especially more so in areas like medicine and you will know better than us on how medicine can have practitioners involved in life or death situations, sometimes the rate of response being critical.

If a doctor failed to respond to an emergency in an appropriate manner because of being slower to read some information or just not having interpreted some information properly, that is just not good enough.

I've suggested on your other thread that perhaps if you wanted to make a trip to Australia, you may be able to arrange to spend some time in an observing role and be in communication with doctors here in an english speaking environment.
_[ And best to do it with other than other Pakistanis for it is very easy for people from the same country to fall back on their native language ]_.


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## mallory

It's not just doctors, the NSW Nurses & Midwives Board also now requires an IELTS of 7 across all bands for registration of overseas educated nurses.

As to the reason, that should be obvious, however a reading of this case shows what can go wrong when an overseas doctor is out of their depth attempting to practice medicine in this country.

Stateline NSW

Protection of the Australian public has to come first. It is not possible to practice safely with an IELTS of less than 7....its not a guarantee of course, but it is a start.


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## Wanderer

mallory said:


> It's not just doctors, the NSW Nurses & Midwives Board also now requires an IELTS of 7 across all bands for registration of overseas educated nurses.
> 
> As to the reason, that should be obvious, however a reading of this case shows what can go wrong when an overseas doctor is out of their depth attempting to practice medicine in this country.
> 
> Stateline NSW
> 
> Protection of the Australian public has to come first. It is not possible to *practice safely with an IELTS of less than 7....its not a guarantee of course, but it is a start*.


Interesting report from Stateline that Mallory, as much for its lack of conclusion as anything and your own words highlighted in bold look to be the tip of the iceberg.

There's not so much any great evidence of the lack of english ability being shown in the report but quite something of the attitudes and competence of more than just two relatively junior doctors.

Doctors will make mistakes but with


> The inquest was told Dr Ismail made a decision to double the dose of endone from five to 10 milligrams at shorter intervals - three hourly instead of six. 30 milligrams of endone were subsequently administered to Vanessa between 7 pm and 2 am in addition to four Panadeine Forte tablets.


Whilst our Doctor Little even mentions the possibility of mis-reading Panadiene Forte for just Panadiene, the doseage increase of endone is *just 400% !!!!!*
and that is beyond the relam of competence when it comes to any sort of logic.

But the problems are more so for if with


> These drugs were administered despite the fact that earlier in the day, the neurosurgeon caring for Vanessa, Dr Nicholas Little, he was "constrained in the amount of analgesia we can give."


 we are left to wonder just how well written up were instructions if his thoughts were written up at all.

And then we have


> EXCERPT OF LETTER TO GREG KNOBLANCHE: "I have spoken with Sanaa and there was a lack of insight into the first case. I think she is under pressure with her visa running out and she has enquired about going to New Zealand... Anyway, at the moment she is not safe, for whatever reason."
> 
> &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..
> 
> EXCERPT OF LETTER TO THE CORONER: "This letter generated a meeting without our Head of Department, though her position was considered non negotiable. I agreed to increase her supervision but accepted the fact that she was probably incapable of independent Specialist Practice in Australia."


Which would have me questioning the medical standards oversight, the report on the Doctor in question being some seven months prior to the patient death.

There may also be further inconsistency with information tended to the Coroner for


> Dr Barratt told the Coroner in his letter that Dr Azizi was:
> EXCERPT OF LETTER TO THE CORONER: "Almost certainly not subject to any appointments or selection process as in Dr Ismail's case."


 *is a little different to*


> EXCERPT OF LETTER TO THE CORONER: "She was paid for by the Saudi Government. Our hospital paid her on-call only. She did not undergo any selection or appointment process


The attitude of DOH would not seem to do a lot for health of the Australian health system either and it does seem that local training of doctors falls well short of Australia's population expansion and our recruiting of overseas doctors is morally questionable as well for do the countries of those doctors not have their own needs just as much as Australias?

With the current trial proceeding of Dr. Patel on manslaughter charges, english is also not being held to be an issue but certaintly the oversight of medical practices was questioned at the coronial inquest.

*So Aqeel,*
We have wandered away from your question Doctor on the need for good english and you would know it is not going to be just good english that will make a good doctor but more so the underlying competence of doctors and professionalism of systems and management in place.

The report posted by mallory gives a good example of a number of issues to do with the Royal North Shore Hospital, one of Sydney's major hospitals btw and you are probably aware that issues arise in many hospitals right around the globe, that being all the more reason for the best level of communication being a necessity, communication in Australia being primarily in english and certainly so for our medical staff in hospitals and medical clinics, though some multi lingual abilities are also often valuable when it comes to treating some people with an immigrant background.

Best of luck with your endeavour.


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## mallory

Well lets just say that adequate English communication skills are a necessary but not sufficient condition for safe practice and the avoidance of errors.

I have worked in the health care system in NSW for many years, and have been involved in the education of heath professionals for 15 years.

I can read between the lines in this report, and my assessment is that it is reasonable to draw the conclusion that the misreading of the medication chart in this case was related to language skills (or lack thereof). I also think this was very likely to be the cause of this registrar not following the neurologists recommendation (which was written in Vanessa's notes) that the prescribing of analgesia was 'constrained'. Did Dr Ismail understand the meaning of this word? Probably we will never know.

On a related issue, is not just the standard English and medical terminology that many international students and overseas educated professionals struggle with, its the Australian colloquialisms....they have to understand what the locals are saying too and that is not easy at all.


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## Wanderer

mallory said:


> Well lets just say that adequate English communication skills are a necessary but not sufficient condition for safe practice and the avoidance of errors.
> 
> I have worked in the health care system in NSW for many years, and have been involved in the education of heath professionals for 15 years.
> 
> I can read between the lines in this report, and my assessment is that it is reasonable to draw the conclusion that the misreading of the medication chart in this case was related to language skills (or lack thereof). I also think this was very likely to be the cause of this registrar not following the neurologists recommendation (which was written in Vanessa's notes) that the prescribing of analgesia was 'constrained'. Did Dr Ismail understand the meaning of this word? Probably we will never know.
> 
> On a related issue, is not just the standard English and medical terminology that many international students and overseas educated professionals struggle with, its the Australian colloquialisms....they have to understand what the locals are saying too and that is not easy at all.


I think based on the Stateline report mallory, my mind is open to poor communication or decisions for on your reading between the lines and conclusion whilst Dr Little hinself admitted that the possibility of Panadiene forte being able to be read as panadiene and whether or not that was because of english is unclear,
but with


> the cause of this registrar not following the neurologists recommendation *(which was written in Vanessa's notes)* that the prescribing of analgesia was 'constrained'.


have you read in some other document what was written in Vanessa's notes?
for on referring to the report, there is


> These drugs were administered despite the fact that earlier in the day, the neurosurgeon caring for Vanessa, Dr Nicholas Little, he was "constrained in the amount of analgesia we can give."
> *[ that actual transcript itself lacking in english expression somewhat, but certainly no mention of notes!] *
> Dr Little told the inquest when he learned after Vanessa's death about the dosage he was alarmed. I thought the does was too high, he said.
> 
> Counsel assisting the inquest, Gail Furness, asked Dr Little:
> 
> GAIL FURNESS (voiceover): "Would you have expected an anaesthetic registrar who was consulting a patient for the purpose of pre-operative check to prescribe medication?"
> 
> DR NICHOLAS LITTLE (voiceover): "No. Well, not for analgesia, no."


And the follow on certainly indicates something of a treatment communication gap within patient management - like, what is a registrar to do if a patient claims to be in acute pain? - tell the patient to suck it up!

If Dr Little expected it was hospital policy for a registrar or this registrar given history not to take decisions of this nature, that should have been clearly established and a management process in place _[ and perhaps that should have been so ]_

My reading between the lines of quite a few statements in the Stateline article is that there is more to that situation that needed addressing than just the registrar's competence.


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## AQEEL

*IELTS compulsory for All........who wins dude!*

Practice of Medicine skills requires competency based thorough clinical judgement.Language skill is only a part of this practice.

This by no way stands any answer to the biased IELTS criteria but allow me to let you know that may be sometimes this judgement can be wrong and unfair in the assessment of a Clinician...like in my case.... 
with 7 score in Listening and 8+ in speaking!! but ............

If communication is the sole criteria for the practice of medicine then so far, I see no criteria no yardstick for the language assessment of native english speakers.They may aslo have poor communication skills like all human beings.

This point needs to be worked out and categorised.

Let us end this issue with .................one solution ...................IELTS for All .
Let us make IELTS compulsory for all with no discrimination of country and colour and then see who wins the race dude!!


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## Wanderer

AQEEL said:


> Practice of Medicine skills requires competency based thorough clinical judgement.Language skill is only a part of this practice.
> 
> This by no way stands any answer to the biased IELTS criteria but allow me to let you know that may be sometimes this judgement can be wrong and unfair in the assessment of a Clinician...like in my case....
> with 7 score in Listening and 8+ in speaking!! but ............
> 
> If communication is the sole criteria for the practice of medicine then so far, I see no criteria no yardstick for the language assessment of native english speakers.They may aslo have poor communication skills like all human beings.
> 
> This point needs to be worked out and categorised.
> 
> Let us end this issue with .................one solution ...................IELTS for All .
> Let us make IELTS compulsory for all with no discrimination of country and colour and then see who wins the race dude!!


It would seem from that response Aqeel that you do in deed need to improve your reading skills for whilst mallory and I may want to differ a bit on interpreting ther Stateline article, there is clear indication to you that whilst communication is one issue and not just with foreign trained doctors, it has not been said it is a sole criteria and as you've agreed is a part of enhancing competent and safe medical practice in Australia.

You claim a bias and where in fact is that?
Have you bothered to read thoroughly all the information available through the Doctor Connect site?
Online Application Wizard and FAQ in particular has explanation of of why english standards are there, so why not read it and who in fact is it biased against?

You do need to do more than listen and speak in many professions, not just the medical nor the occupation of doctor.
For doctors there is:


> A national English Language Proficiency requirement* for all International*Medical Graduates (IMGs) who require registration in Australia has been
> accepted by:
> Medical Board of the Australian Capital Territory
> New South Wales Medical Board
> Medical Board of the Northern Territory
> Medical Board of Queensland
> Medical Board of South Australia
> Medical Council of Tasmania
> Medical Practitioners Board of Victoria


Pleas take special note of :


> *for all International
> Medical Graduates (IMGs) who require registration in Australia *


Maybe you ought to get a new set of starting blocks before you go running off at the mouth about discrimination, countries and colours.

Australia btw has people with origins of more than two hundred different countries, very much a land of immigrants you could say, but a country that has a national language of english.

So go and dude yourself and if need be get some medical help.


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## mallory

http://www.nswmb.org.au/resources/807


Wanderer said:


> .....what is a registrar to do if a patient claims to be in acute pain? - tell the patient to suck it up!


Not those exact words no, but effectively yes. Analgesia has to be given extremely carefully in cases of closed head injury, because of its effect on level of consciousness. LOC being a key assessment tool in the monitoring severity of the head injury itself. That was part of the reason for the 'constrained' comment by the neurologist (I don't know for sure whether he documented this, or just assumed an anaesthetics registrar would know it....its not esoteric knowledge. He would have documented his treatment plan though, and this would have included pain management).

What the registrar should have done was to explain this to Vanessa and her family, then consult with the neurologist as to whether a more effective, but non-lethal regime of pain relief was possible in this case (unlikely because of the maximum dose of PF she was already on).



Wanderer said:


> My reading between the lines of quite a few statements in the Stateline article is that there is more to that situation that needed addressing than just the registrar's competence.


It is true that most mistakes in complex systems are multifactorial, and this was no exception. For example, the nurses should have known better than to give Vanessa successive and eventually lethal doses of both medications....that should not have happened, no matter what had been charted.

However, the professional standards committee of the NMB thought Dr Ismael's deficiency was communication.



I don't know for sure what the exact nature of the communication problem was, and probably we will never know. Has the 'communication course' she was required to undertake fixed whatever the problems were? We can only hope.


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## mallory

AQEEL said:


> Let us end this issue with .................one solution ...................IELTS for All .
> Let us make IELTS compulsory for all with no discrimination of country and colour and then see who wins the race dude!!


You have an attitude problem.

I could not demand to go and practice my profession in another country if I did not meet their professional standards requirements. I would have to undergo comprehensive testing if I wanted to practice in the US, for example. That is not discrimination, it is prudence.

Justice in this situation is not about imposing equality upon that which is in fact not equal. It is about providing maximum possible protection for the Australian public.


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## doctor1

*dr aqeel*

Hi,i am from pakistan can you plz send me ur email i have some ielts help links i will send to you
kind regards


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## CPMaverick

It doesn't matter why. It won't change, so just accept it and apply yourself.


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## lilwayne

For many years, i have tried to make sense out of the english requirement for migration purposes. I came to the conclusion that the whole system does not make sense. Under the current system , your skills are less important than your language proficiency given that more points are allocated toward your ielts test score than your university degree. In the end of the day, no matter what your ielts score is, if you don't have the proper skills to become a doctor, then, the system is inefficient. it does not take a genious to figure that out. the emphasis should be on one's skills not on a perceived " language proficiency"

i have taken the ielts test twice socring an overall score of 8 with a minimum score of 6.5 in the writing section. yet, i was awarded 15 points, the same point awarded to people with a score of 5. make sense? The method used to assess one's proficiency in english fail to account the subjectivity of the test. ielts is not a math test. Yet, they persist in maintaining this requierement of 7 in each bands. they either have no idea what this test is about or manoeuvre to make people ineligible to apply for permanent residency. it is well known practice in australia and noone cannot deny it. Last year, in the midst of the financial crisis, many states in OZ raised their ielts test requierement ( 8 in each bands in some states) following the decision of the minister to reduce the number of migrants. another worthy this to mention is the cost of ielts in Australia: almost twice of any country in the western world. 

Recommendation, you are dealing with a criminal government with no ethics. Thieves only interested in getting your money. i suggest you find another country where your skills are valued. good luck with everything -)


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## Wanderer

lilwayne said:


> For many years, i have tried to make sense out of the english requirement for migration purposes. I came to the conclusion that the whole system does not make sense. Under the current system , your skills are less important than your language proficiency given that more points are allocated toward your ielts test score than your university degree. In the end of the day, no matter what your ielts score is, if you don't have the proper skills to become a doctor, then, the system is inefficient. it does not take a genious to figure that out. the emphasis should be on one's skills not on a perceived " language proficiency"
> 
> i have taken the ielts test twice socring an overall score of 8 with a minimum score of 6.5 in the writing section. yet, i was awarded 15 points, the same point awarded to people with a score of 5. make sense? The method used to assess one's proficiency in english fail to account the subjectivity of the test. ielts is not a math test. Yet, they persist in maintaining this requierement of 7 in each bands. they either have no idea what this test is about or manoeuvre to make people ineligible to apply for permanent residency. it is well known practice in australia and noone cannot deny it. Last year, in the midst of the financial crisis, many states in OZ raised their ielts test requierement ( 8 in each bands in some states) following the decision of the minister to reduce the number of migrants. another worthy this to mention is the cost of ielts in Australia: almost twice of any country in the western world.
> 
> Recommendation, you are dealing with a criminal government with no ethics. Thieves only interested in getting your money. i suggest you find another country where your skills are valued. good luck with everything -)


You make some rather *inaccurate* claims there for qualification assessments give either 40, 50, or 60 points and there is a mandatory requirement of a minimum of 12 months experience and with more than three years experience in the four years prior to applying, additional points can be attained.
Up to 30 points can be attained by age.
25 points is the maximum possible for english ability.
I think you will find the minimum standard of english is now 5.5 or 6.0 and may even be 6.0 to get 15 points, the level for 25 points being 7.0

The Immigration department are not specialists in occupations assessments nor testing for english competency and that is why the relevant organisations are used, it often being occupational assessment organisations that will contribute to the required IELTS.
What the states do in regard to sponsoring is their business _[ and given the rest of your inaccuracies, I would be surprised if they have set a higher standard than Immi are using ]_ but immigration is not controlled by the states.

As for numbers, you might care to actually have a look @ 1.1.1 Economic migration - Outcome 1.1 - Annual Report 2007-2008
You will find that the numbers for the past two years ending 2009 - 2010 have exceeded what was before and have been relatively stable, a similar number of over 100,000 also budgeted for 2010 - 2011.
The government does not do the IELTS testing nor set charges.

As to your final paragraph, in good Australian English, you are full of it and sprout complete BS, such people not usually talking through their mouth.
Yes, you will do very well staying away from Australia.


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## Darrenc

lilwayne said:


> For many years, i have tried to make sense out of the english requirement for migration purposes. I came to the conclusion that the whole system does not make sense. Under the current system , your skills are less important than your language proficiency given that more points are allocated toward your ielts test score than your university degree. In the end of the day, no matter what your ielts score is, if you don't have the proper skills to become a doctor, then, the system is inefficient. it does not take a genious to figure that out. the emphasis should be on one's skills not on a perceived " language proficiency"
> 
> i have taken the ielts test twice socring an overall score of 8 with a minimum score of 6.5 in the writing section. yet, i was awarded 15 points, the same point awarded to people with a score of 5. make sense? The method used to assess one's proficiency in english fail to account the subjectivity of the test. ielts is not a math test. Yet, they persist in maintaining this requierement of 7 in each bands. they either have no idea what this test is about or manoeuvre to make people ineligible to apply for permanent residency. it is well known practice in australia and noone cannot deny it. Last year, in the midst of the financial crisis, many states in OZ raised their ielts test requierement ( 8 in each bands in some states) following the decision of the minister to reduce the number of migrants. another worthy this to mention is the cost of ielts in Australia: almost twice of any country in the western world.
> 
> Recommendation, you are dealing with a criminal government with no ethics. Thieves only interested in getting your money. i suggest you find another country where your skills are valued. good luck with everything -)


I dont understand why is there a need for you to complain. If you do not think it make sense, that is your point of view.

Australia is a western country and migration policy and rules are entirely up to their discretion. I am a migrant myself and sometimes I do not understand how migrants can turn up here without proper language skills.

I do not think you have much need to complain, just be thankful for the country allowing you to stay. If you made that choice, if you think it is not reasonable, dont come, that is your choice.


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## coach

I have been a teacher in Asian countries for the past 5 years. Many people, in the country in which I live, consider English to be their first language. Despite that fact the standard of speaking and comprehension could not be considered on a level with a native English speaker, even amongst local teachers of English language. The government have recognised this as an issue and are addressing the problem.

Where English is not the first language, and where translation is used as a method, manipulation of the semantics can occur. Not every single word has a definite equivalent in another language. There could be a tendency to impose the mother tongue systems into the target language. The extent of this influence can vary, depending on the similarity of the languages, and the proficiency of the user.

From your narrative above, I suspect that English is perhaps not your first language. I may be wrong, and it may just be your hightened emotional state that is giving rise to your inappropriate use of language, punctuation and spelling.

I do not believe that there is a racial bias in the requirement for the English language proficiency test. Indeed for some professions the test is required regardless of the ethnicity of the migrant.

Perhaps Aqeel is correct in saying that all migrants should be required to take the IELTS. With the introduction of the new legislation, who knows you may just get your wish. But be careful what you wish for, you may just get it.

The above not withstanding, I do wish you luck in your endeavour to become a permanent resident of Australia.


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## Wanderer

coach said:


> I have been a teacher in Asian countries for the past 5 years. Many people, in the country in which I live, consider English to be their first language. Despite that fact the standard of speaking and comprehension could not be considered on a level with a native English speaker, even amongst local teachers of English language. The government have recognised this as an issue and are addressing the problem.
> 
> Where English is not the first language, and where translation is used as a method, manipulation of the semantics can occur. Not every single word has a definite equivalent in another language. There could be a tendency to impose the mother tongue systems into the target language. The extent of this influence can vary, depending on the similarity of the languages, and the proficiency of the user.
> 
> From your narrative above, I suspect that English is perhaps not your first language. I may be wrong, and it may just be your hightened emotional state that is giving rise to your inappropriate use of language, punctuation and spelling.
> 
> I do not believe that there is a racial bias in the requirement for the English language proficiency test. Indeed for some professions the test is required regardless of the ethnicity of the migrant.
> 
> Perhaps Aqeel is correct in saying that all migrants should be required to take the IELTS. With the introduction of the new legislation, who knows you may just get your wish. But be careful what you wish for, you may just get it.
> 
> The above not withstanding, I do wish you luck in your endeavour to become a permanent resident of Australia.


It is true what you say about local language and other languages influence on English Coach for though never having taught english as such, I did help out in another country and whereas the population had been exposed to European languages prior to English, even with teachers going to school to qualify to teach english, they were not constructing sentences with use of adjectives or adverbs.

Over a couple of weeks I helped a couple of teachers in that area, basically having them do considerable rewriting of essay sentences and their new found english English was so quickly apparent to their own lecturer, they were back with a request from their teacher to meet me as she herself had studied in Australia.
I also found some locally produced dictionaries leaving something to be desired.

Despite having helped a couple of teachers on to the right track, one later immigrating to Australia, it could well be that one teacher alone would go back to other ways just by weight of peer teaching and so yes, english is not always english.

A good level of english is certainly more important to some professions than others as is recognition within professions in Australia that a closer attention to all communication means is required at times depending on who is being communicated with.

As to the regulations, all immigrants do need to get an IELTS assessment if more than the standard 15 points for english ability is to be attained and that even goes for applicants who have had english as their native tongue from birth and have attained University level qualifications all in english.

I think it was different in the past as english native tongue applicants did get 25 points as a standard approach but that changed quite a few years back.

I would be surprised if it was changed much in the raft of current changes being introduced for they are more about occupations to be listed and priorities.


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## CPMaverick

I am American, english is my native tongue, and I had to take the IELTS. I think it's perfectly reasonable, and it should be equal for everyone.


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## Gary

Coach,

A doctor who has been working in the countryside for many years was asked to sit the ielts test to renew his license. He was required to obtain a score of 7 in each component of the test and unfortunately for him, he failed. By the way, this a region in need of doctors. 

Another case: a british nurse with 20 year experience was also required to sit the ielts test. ( you can find the specific details of what i mentioned on google )

I have to disagree with you. i believe there is a deliberate intent to limit the number of migrants for a specific occupation and sadly this is achieved via the ielts test.


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## CPMaverick

Gary said:


> I have to disagree with you. i believe there is a deliberate intent to limit the number of migrants for a specific occupation and sadly this is achieved via the ielts test.


Why is it sad? Is it because they are limiting migrants? Certainly they must do this to some extent. Is it because they are doing it via ielts? Well, if you must limit, language seems like a good way to do it. It is definitely more objective than nationality, age, race, etc.

Most competent people should be able to pass the ielts. Others can do it the second time. If they can't, well sorry but if you have to limit migrants, cut the weakest.


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## lilwayne

CPMaverick said:


> Why is it sad? Is it because they are limiting migrants? Certainly they must do this to some extent. Is it because they are doing it via ielts? Well, if you must limit, language seems like a good way to do it. It is definitely more objective than nationality, age, race, etc.
> 
> Most competent people should be able to pass the ielts. Others can do it the second time. If they can't, well sorry but if you have to limit migrants, cut the weakest.


what is your definition of competent people? how do you determine a good ielts test score? i am not sure wether you are familiar with the system. as i pointed out in my previous post, there are 2 ielts test requirement for PR applicants. On one hand, some applicants are required an ielts score of 6 whereas other need a score of 7. the latter is due to the fact they study shorter courses . Why the discrepancy? clearly, something is wrong.. all applicants should be required to obtain the same ielts test score regardless of their circumstances..


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## Dexter

Australia has the same English standards for everyone - not only Asians. Anyone from non English spoken country has to pass IELTS. Also, if you are a citizen of an English spoken country and were born in there, your English recognition is only equivalent to 6 in all parts of IELTS. I personally met native speakers working in healthcare who had to pass academic IELTS with 7 in each section to get work. 

It is obvious that some applicants will be required to get 6 and some 7 - depending on their profession. For points test purposes scoring is always the same - 15 for 6 in each section and 25 for 7. It is occupation recognition that has additional requirements. Think logically - you will need different language skills if you are a mechanic and different if you are a doctor or a nurse. That's the reason for differences. 

Australia doesn't want doctors or nurses with insufficient English. How useful will they be to the society if they cannot understand what the patient says (in English) or what particular medicine does (due to instruction in English).


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## Wanderer

lilwayne said:


> what is your definition of competent people? how do you determine a good ielts test score? i am not sure wether you are familiar with the system. as i pointed out in my previous post, there are 2 ielts test requirement for PR applicants. On one hand, some applicants are required an ielts score of 6 whereas other need a score of 7. the latter is due to the fact they study shorter courses . Why the discrepancy? clearly, something is wrong.. all applicants should be required to obtain the same ielts test score regardless of their circumstances..


Once agan, have you read the requirements properly.
Read Skilled - Independent (Migrant) Visa (Subclass 175) and then state specifically the discrepancy you speak of.

If you want to keep just stirring the pot by claiming things which are not so, I can tell you that you will no longer be posting here.


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## ShaneASCMigration

AQEEL said:


> Practice of Medicine skills requires competency based thorough clinical judgement.Language skill is only a part of this practice.
> 
> This by no way stands any answer to the biased IELTS criteria but allow me to let you know that may be sometimes this judgement can be wrong and unfair in the assessment of a Clinician...like in my case....
> with 7 score in Listening and 8+ in speaking!! but ............
> 
> If communication is the sole criteria for the practice of medicine then so far, I see no criteria no yardstick for the language assessment of native english speakers.They may aslo have poor communication skills like all human beings.
> 
> This point needs to be worked out and categorised.
> 
> Let us end this issue with .................one solution ...................IELTS for All .
> Let us make IELTS compulsory for all with no discrimination of country and colour and then see who wins the race dude!!


Let's put it in another way. English is one of the hardest languages to learn, and when you've got a continent where you'll have patients who are born Aussies, English, Asian, American, Irish, other Europeans, etc you encounter a broad dialect of the English language.

Therefore, if you are my doctor, and I am describing a problem to you, and I say something like "burning sensation" and you interpret that as "dull pain" and prescribe a certain drug, we have a problem.

The test is there, as has been stated, to protect the Australian people, first and foremost. And it's not about discrimination, it's about making sure that patients in Australian medical care are represented by those who are competently able to understand the problems at hand.

Using it in other contexts-if someone has a low IELTS score and gets on a forklift and fails to understand the "NO ENTRY" sign, this could be dangerous, or if they can't understand the "Hardhats must be worn in this area" sign, again, this is a problem. So it's these rules are in place for the protection of potential migrants as well as the Australian people.

Shane K
ASC Migration


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## Ashley Wilis

hi everyone, 
I don't think, its bad to set strict standards because quality come with strict standards, and as you said your are a doctor, then you should know good English, because in case of small misinterpretation a Life Savior can become a Death Provider.


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## Dr Undies

*English*

Australians have generally high standards of health care. We expect our medical officers to be fluent in English. If a medico cannot communicate effectively with other Australian medicos or their clients, it introduces too many possibilities for serious errors to occur. I personally would NOT want to consult a medical officer who has poor English skills for those very reasons. A person's health is too important for communication errors!



AQEEL said:


> I am a Pakistani Doctor(MBBS 1992) ,recently working in UAE as GP.
> I am looking to move to Australia since long.But have failed due to IELTS 7+7 in all compulsion.
> I have 7 overall but less in reading(6) and writing(6).This score too will expire this october 2010.I want to move to Australia on 422 Subclass visa for GP,s and start my supervised clinical practice in area of need or workforce shortage areas till I improve my IELTS(If needed) and of course do my AMC exam and track my career for General Practitioner.
> 
> I shall be thankful doctor if somebody can guide me and decrease my disappointment.


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## Ashley Wilis

hi, 
even if some how you reached here, you are not able to stand up in your field (doctor)
because for that you need to interact with common people and you won't be able to understand and interpret them easily so ... don't try to use shortcuts.. use your own brain and first get fair enough knowledge of English (speaking and writing and understanding ) because it is the least requirement of your field


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## denielmark

*strict*

An Asian Australian can be generally defined as a person of Asian ancestry who was born in, or is an immigrant to, Australia.

There is no agreed definition of who an Asian Australian is, although for the purposes of aggregating data, the Australian Bureau of Statistics in its Australian Standard Classification of Cultural and Ethnic Groups (ASCCEG) has grouped certain ethnic groups into certain categories, including Northeast Asian e.g Chinese Australian, Southeast Asian e.g Vietnamese Australian, South Asian e.g. Indian Australian and Central Asian e.g Kazakh Australian. [2] For the purpose of this article an Asian Australian is considered to be an Australian resident falling into either of these three groups.

At the 2006 Census 1,696,568 Australian residents declared that they had ancestral background to one of these three groupings, either alone or in combination with one other ancestry. This represents about 8.7% of all responses.


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## Dexter

This is not really about being an Asian. This is about migration from an Asian country and language requirements. They are the same for everyone but most Asians struggle with English language (as its grammar is completely different to their mother tongue plus it has completely different pronunciation) and to them it looks like Australia is really strict with its English requirements. 

My wife is Chinese (immigrant) and I can see how difficult it is for her to pronounce some things or to pickup some grammar elements. Nevertheless, Immigration rules are going the right way as they focus on English skills.


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## Puma 230 Tiger sq

*Been a long time!!*

Aqeel, i know exactly where you're coming from. 
BUT and it's a very BIG BUT in this world. 
The ass's that we and you employ and elect to run our countries are the people who decide what we do. How much we pay for daily goods and how much we owe them! 
The big problem is the fact that so many "foreign" people are moving to ENGLISH speaking countries. And 2 be honest they can't speak the lingo!!
I am not taking this lightly as in my service in RAF I have had 2 learn so many languages that it isn't funny anymore. 
So to effect I totally agree with Mollory (irish?) and wanderer, if you were serious then english is your No 1 education need.


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## dragon

*Does an IELTS score actually reflect English communication capabilities?*

I raised this question through a new thread yesterday, but was later told by Wanderer to join in here.

It came up after coming across a few comments from this and other forums from prospective migrants who can't fully understand official communications emailed/posted to them and/or info available at the DIAC and allied Govt. bodies(including State/Territory) websites.

Considering that almost all prospective migrants do have to take the IELTS and meet a minimum threshold band requirement in the respective Listening, Reading, Writing & Speaking sections, *(Q1) do you think that the IELTS score actually reflects true English comprehension & communication abilities of individuals as would be required to make ends meet Down Under?*

Another point that I'd like to add about the IELTS is that any specific overall band target can be met with through a proper and focused preparation regardless of whether you are a native speaker or not - the test knows nothing about the taker. Through personal experience, I feel that reading and listening can be aced (9 in both) while the writing and speaking parts are where your true expression of English is tested. Getting 7 bands across all sections can be a big challenge for non-speakers of English but scoring 8s or 9s will most likely be impossible unless you really can write and speak it. The DIACs new point system, applicable July 2011 onwards, that allows room to claim points for superior English reflects its responsiveness to incidents like that of Dr.Ismail quoted much earlier in this thread. But still, *(Q2) would it be acceptable to have an immigrant doc with 8(Superior) or 9(Proficient) bands in all sections as per the IELTS test with the possibility that his/her actual reading and listening capabilities could well be below 7 considering that both these sections can be aced like I previously mentioned?*

_P.S. I managed an overall 8 band on my IELTS with respectively L/R/W/S: 9/9/7/7 and I'm not a native speaker of English_


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## Dexter

> (Q1) do you think that the IELTS score actually reflects true English comprehension & communication abilities of individuals as would be required to make ends meet Down Under?


It does some work in that area but no, it does not truly reflect it. Listening and speaking sections are too easy and high scores are easier to achieve. On the other hand, even native speakers may have problems with getting 6 or 7 in writing whereas migrants from India do great in that area. The same Indians with 7 or 8 in writing or even with 7 or 8 in all sections of IELTS end up in supermarkets or as taxi drivers because their English it not well understood by locals.



> (Q2) would it be acceptable to have an immigrant doc with 8(Superior) or 9(Proficient) bands in all sections as per the IELTS test with the possibility that his/her actual reading and listening capabilities could well be below 7 considering that both these sections can be aced like I previously mentioned?


Yes, it is quite common that listening and speaking results are better than reading and writing. Moreover, listening and speaking are marked too high IMHO and do not reflect true language level.


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## ShaneASCMigration

While those questions are extremely valid, and the above answers are spot on, there are a huge number of applicants that are refused entry due to their poort English level. I have an individual who wishes to use our services but we have to refuse him because no matter what happens, he cannot apply for any visa because his IELTS score is only at level 5. 

While there is always people out there who will find ways around things like IELTS, avoiding a speeding ticket, thwarting the insurance company to make a false claim, etc. I believe that the vast majority will simply walk in and take the test as innocently as a third grader taking a spelling test. Whether they pass or fail rests on their skills with the language.

But of course, you raise the point with your first question. And yes, IELTS could be looked at and worked over to provide a more complete understanding of an individual's ability, and I do believe that changes will come with DIAC placing a strong emphasis on English ability with the new points test, but my advice is to just be patient. 

Oh, with regards to the above comment about people coming from India with high IELTS scores then ending up as taxi driver's because of their English ability, I don't believe that to be correct. A lot of people were in high profile jobs in India such as doctors or engineers, but fail to meet the qualification standards in Australia. I've worked with people coming from South America who were Doctors and Vets in their home country, and are cleaning cars at the moment while they spend two years in university learning how to be a Doctor or Vet in Australia. I love that about this country - just because you're qualified as something in another country, doesn't mean you're qualified here.


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## dragon

Dexter said:


> On the other hand, even native speakers may have problems with getting 6 or 7 in writing whereas migrants from India do great in that area. The same Indians with 7 or 8 in writing or even with 7 or 8 in all sections of IELTS end up in supermarkets or as taxi drivers because their English it not well understood by locals.


On a broader level, people from the South Asia(India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Bangladesh) and other former Colonial areas do tend to place higher emphasis on English in schools. Harsha Bogle, the Indian cricket commentator, I feel is a good example of what I'm saying, if you have heard him.



Dexter said:


> Yes, it is quite common that listening and speaking results are better than reading and writing. Moreover, listening and speaking are marked too high IMHO and do not reflect true language level.





ShaneASCMigration said:


> But of course, you raise the point with your first question. And yes, IELTS could be looked at and worked over to provide a more complete understanding of an individual's ability, and I do believe that changes will come with DIAC placing a strong emphasis on English ability with the new points test, but my advice is to just be patient.


Do you think its time the IELTS body did a review of their grading system(specially the General format required to be taken by prospective migrants) with the feedback of DIAC and other countries that require the IELTS for immigration purposes, to reflect more precise skill levels; or do you feel that the DIAC should introduce an Aus-specific test based on local requirements with feedback from experts including respected expats?



ShaneASCMigration said:


> Oh, with regards to the above comment about people coming from India with high IELTS scores then ending up as taxi driver's because of their English ability, I don't believe that to be correct. A lot of people were in high profile jobs in India such as doctors or engineers, but fail to meet the qualification standards in Australia. I've worked with people coming from South America who were Doctors and Vets in their home country, and are cleaning cars at the moment while they spend two years in university learning how to be a Doctor or Vet in Australia. I love that about this country - just because you're qualified as something in another country, doesn't mean you're qualified here.


Regardless of the IELTS, how can individuals fail to meet qualification standards when their foreign(non-Aus) qualifications have been "assessed" and deemed equal to the Aussie standards as part of the DIAC process and end up in Australia as a taxi driver?


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## ShaneASCMigration

dragon said:


> On a broader level, people from the South Asia(India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Bangladesh) and other former Colonial areas do tend to place higher emphasis on English in schools. Harsha Bogle, the Indian cricket commentator, I feel is a good example of what I'm saying, if you have heard him.
> 
> Do you think its time the IELTS body did a review of their grading system(specially the General format required to be taken by prospective migrants) with the feedback of DIAC and other countries that require the IELTS for immigration purposes, to reflect more precise skill levels; or do you feel that the DIAC should introduce an Aus-specific test based on local requirements with feedback from experts including respected expats?
> 
> Regardless of the IELTS, how can individuals fail to meet qualification standards when their foreign(non-Aus) qualifications have been "assessed" and deemed equal to the Aussie standards as part of the DIAC process and end up in Australia as a taxi driver?


Personally I believe IELTS needs to be reviewed every time DIAC reviews its policies. But then, that's wishful thinking. I think every two years wouldn't be out of the question.

A lot of people don't come over as "Doctors" or other professions. They come over as students and then try and enter the workforce as a skilled graduate, try and get sponsored etc. Most hospitals, GP Clinics, Vet Clinics, Engineering firms will not take on people from other countries unless they are suitably qualified in Australian practices. Look at engineering, if you happen to know anyone in the field, ask them about how extensive the "Australian standards" are with relation to engineering and construction. A bloke coming from a part of Asia where they still use bamboo scaffolding obviously needs to go back to school if they intend to design structures that will have to be built using our technologies.

I wish I could use an example like this for the medical field but I'm afraid I'm not that knowledgeable. All I know is I do have a few clients entering Australia as students for two years, working part time as cleaners and taxi drivers to pay the rent, then go through the normal routes of trying to find work experience and sponsorship. It's quite rewarding actually, seeing people so eager to work in this great country of ours


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## dragon

ShaneASCMigration said:


> Personally I believe IELTS needs to be reviewed every time DIAC reviews its policies. But then, that's wishful thinking. I think every two years wouldn't be out of the question.
> 
> A lot of people don't come over as "Doctors" or other professions. They come over as students and then try and enter the workforce as a skilled graduate, try and get sponsored etc. Most hospitals, GP Clinics, Vet Clinics, Engineering firms will not take on people from other countries unless they are suitably qualified in Australian practices. Look at engineering, if you happen to know anyone in the field, ask them about how extensive the "Australian standards" are with relation to engineering and construction. A bloke coming from a part of Asia where they still use bamboo scaffolding obviously needs to go back to school if they intend to design structures that will have to be built using our technologies.
> 
> I wish I could use an example like this for the medical field but I'm afraid I'm not that knowledgeable. All I know is I do have a few clients entering Australia as students for two years, working part time as cleaners and taxi drivers to pay the rent, then go through the normal routes of trying to find work experience and sponsorship. It's quite rewarding actually, seeing people so eager to work in this great country of ours


So its more about the Aussie experience, that, which you will agree is what the points test ultimate aim is - to single out individuals closest to Aussie standards in terms of English, qualifications and experience which account for the major chunk of the points required to get to the pass mark; with more points being respectively awarded to people with proficient English, Aussie qualifications and Aussie experience.

The DIAC could consider a qualifications based program similar to the Adult Migrant English Program (AMEP) where migrants can spend time to orient and familiarize themselves with Aussie work standards according to their area of specialization. That is much more easily said considering the cost that will have to be borne.

And, yes I do know of friends who have struggled their way up in Australia through the student route that you mentioned - certainly is worth it!


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## ShaneASCMigration

dragon said:


> So its more about the Aussie experience, that, which you will agree is what the points test ultimate aim is - to single out individuals closest to Aussie standards in terms of English, qualifications and experience which account for the major chunk of the points required to get to the pass mark; with more points being respectively awarded to people with proficient English, Aussie qualifications and Aussie experience.
> 
> The DIAC could consider a qualifications based program similar to the Adult Migrant English Program (AMEP) where migrants can spend time to orient and familiarize themselves with Aussie work standards according to their area of specialization. That is much more easily said considering the cost that will have to be borne.
> 
> And, yes I do know of friends who have struggled their way up in Australia through the student route that you mentioned - certainly is worth it!


Absolutely 100% agree.

There are certain companies out there who will train people who are only missing a few things from their qualifications and have ties with eligible employer sponsors. You just have to find them. I think one is called Silver Trowel Training? Or Silver Trowel something... It's definitely STT anyway.

The Dept. is less and less concerned with helping people get here or get qualified. Many of my clients often say when they tried asking DIAC what they should do regarding something specific they get answers like "You may wish to... or you could also consider..." But never any direct or certain advice. As I say to my clients - the Dept. is there to process the paperwork, not assist you in filling out the paperwork.


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## Dexter

As I wrote before - someone needs to review listening and speaking section. With listening - the recording is basically unnatural. You meet completely different English on the street or in everyday life than in the recording. The one in the recording is clear and much easier to understand. The same assessee goes then to everyday life and often starts claiming that "the way Australians speak is impossible to understand". Job market will be ruthless for them and they will fail to find employment in their own profession. That way we will have doctors and other professionals cleaning, washing cars, working in supermarkets and whinging on their own discussion forums that "they have been cheated by Australian government".

Speaking part is a joke. They don't look much at your accent, pronounciation and how well understood you can be. The result is rarely below 6. In reality, many of these people have English that doesn't qualify them to do the profession they were granted PR for. I don't really have a good solution here...



> All I know is I do have a few clients entering Australia as students for two years, working part time as cleaners and taxi drivers to pay the rent, then go through the normal routes of trying to find work experience and sponsorship.


I'm a similar case but not identical. When I came to Australia, I did 2 years course and passed NAATI test to obtain PR. It worked out very well. Within 2 years I got some Australian experience (mainly in customer service, sales and telemarketing) and I decided to go that way after obtaining PR. Today after 7 years in Australia I can say it was a perfect choice.


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## ShaneASCMigration

Dexter said:


> As I wrote before - someone needs to review listening and speaking section. With listening - the recording is basically unnatural. You meet completely different English on the street or in everyday life than in the recording. The one in the recording is clear and much easier to understand. The same assessee goes then to everyday life and often starts claiming that "the way Australians speak is impossible to understand". Job market will be ruthless for them and they will fail to find employment in their own profession. That way we will have doctors and other professionals cleaning, washing cars, working in supermarkets and whinging on their own discussion forums that "they have been cheated by Australian government".
> 
> Speaking part is a joke. They don't look much at your accent, pronounciation and how well understood you can be. The result is rarely below 6. In reality, many of these people have English that doesn't qualify them to do the profession they were granted PR for. I don't really have a good solution here...
> 
> I'm a similar case but not identical. When I came to Australia, I did 2 years course and passed NAATI test to obtain PR. It worked out very well. Within 2 years I got some Australian experience (mainly in customer service, sales and telemarketing) and I decided to go that way after obtaining PR. Today after 7 years in Australia I can say it was a perfect choice.


Well done on making the right choice 

But the latest trends suggest that less and less people are entering Australia as Independents and a huge emphasis is being placed on employer or state sponsorship (easy points if you can get them).

Yes those tapes do need to be reviewed to include a catalogue of random recordings taken from every day people that one is likely to encounter such as someone at a checkout; "Cheque, savings, or credit?", when you may have asked someone for directions; "Yeah you keep walking right to the end of Hay St, hang a left and it should be on your right in about 50 metres" and other things of that nature.

But again - wishful thinking.

We are talking about a system where civil libertarians are calling the shots these days - a system where homeless people will commit crimes just to end up in prison because it's basically a 3 star hotel behind bars these days. So if you start trying to introduce recordings like that, the civil libertarians will jump up and down screaming "that's not fair! Change it back!"


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## skippy

Hi AQEEL, 
as you just missed out on getting you required ielts score I would suggest that it's probably your exam technique instead on your overall english ability. The fact is IELTS is structured in a way that unless you are really prepared for it you will not get the 7.0 min requried for health professions. Recently a TV program in Australian reported that many Australian's would not get the high scores required of internationals.

I'm sure if you sat the ielts again and prepared for it (e.g. doing practice tests) I'm sure you would be successful. 

Do a search on google for "ielts test online"


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## TristanW

I recommend you take the TOEFL instead - much easier than the IELTS, and with the same (or higher) recognition!

Cheers!


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## TKline

How ironic! Surely a mod should correct the spelling of Australia in the thread title!


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## Dexter

We leave it on as one of the arguments supporting IELTS testing and looking after immigrants' English standards.


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## sikander

I also agree with aqeel that there should be uniform testing system for all individuals hoping to move to australia . This will prevent any unnecessary issues of discriminationn


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