# Help! Told we have insufficient evidence -



## Leigh_ (Nov 2, 2012)

Hi Everyone - 

My partner and I recently submitted a 309 visa application to the Ottawa Embassy. Here are our details - 

Me (Australian citizen) and my partner (american citizen) met and began our relationship in the USA in 2008. we were both students so had a few years of back and forth long distance relationship. We were always 100% committed and can prove corrospondance and holidays, but i understand this period isn't really counted as DeFacto relationship.

In July 2010 my partner came to Australia to live with me and undertake an internship as part of her degree. We lived together for 6 months with documented shared expenses and corrospondance noting our address. She then returned to the USA for classes for 3 months, and then returned to our home in Australia for 3 more months of internship. In July 2011 she had to return to the USA for classes full time and we were apart for 6 months while I secured an American visa. (we are a same sex couple so I couldn't move to the USA on any sort of partner visa). 

From December 2011 we have lived together in the USA & Canada. 

We submitted our application on November 6th and got an email saying we don't have enough evidence to document our relationship and we don't meet the reuqirements of a defacto couple. We are young (22 & 26) so we dont have mortgage or loans or wills or super accounts or anything joint like that. We have provided a lot of travel, shared expenses, shared rent etc. We have our 888's and lots of corrospondance to support us living together in Australia. 

Has anyone else been in this situation? Does this mean they are not counting our 9 months cohabitation in Australia? Can any other younger couples shed any light on how they got past these problems? Is this first email just a standard response to people who don't have a lot of joint documents and on a closer look our application might be okay? 

thanks and looking forward to your response!


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## kttykat (Oct 30, 2012)

Leigh_ said:


> Hi Everyone -
> 
> My partner and I recently submitted a 309 visa application to the Ottawa Embassy. Here are our details -
> 
> ...


From what you said, I think they are partially denying you based on the fact that the "LAST 12 months rule" applies when determining defacto status, they can if they want waive it, if you can PROVE that you couldn't live together for GOOD reasons, typically vague type hurdle to prove what they consider a good reason. Your best option would have been to register your relationship if possible in Australia as defacto, that is not possible in all states. Evidence is one of the most important things to gather when trying for defacto based 309s. Even if you were "married" (not possible as you are same sex couple, to be recognized) you would still have to prove the relationship to immigration and for defacto you must also prove that you were together for the last 12 months before applying, it may have been different if you had applied in December 2012, they are fussy to the day on that one, that you apply after the 12 months of proven cohabitation for defacto status.

Even as a married couple, we applied to Washington DC on the 26th of October 2012 and sent in 5.8 pounds of forms and evidence.... mind you we are still waiting to even hear back from the embassy, so we don't know where we currently stand ourselves.

You need to talk to immigration ASAP and ask them what extra evidence they would like to see, I have heard of cases where they do tell you what you would need to do to "prove" your case.

Good luck,
Kttykat


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## kttykat (Oct 30, 2012)

BTW Leigh,

What evidence exactly did you supply, ie how many 888s? They ask for two but we sent in four from friends, not relatives as they see unrelated people as more independent. We sent lots of photos, etc too.

Kttykat


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## Boboa (Mar 24, 2009)

You would need to write a state a dec and outline exactly the history as you did here (with more details, dates etc). That along with whatever proof you have and 888 should be a strong enough evidence. 
Tickets, lease agreements all that should be copied and provided. 
Finally, hope your application gets processed in any of Sydney centers 
Good luck


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## kttykat (Oct 30, 2012)

Boboa said:


> You would need to write a state a dec and outline exactly the history as you did here (with more details, dates etc). That along with whatever proof you have and 888 should be a strong enough evidence.
> Tickets, lease agreements all that should be copied and provided.
> Finally, hope your application gets processed in any of Sydney centers
> Good luck


She has already applied in Ottawa so it will be initially processed there. You are right though you really do need to cover the four areas of proof. Just because they are young doesn't mean they can't write wills etc. We bought a car together and had the title put in both our names. The DMV was a bit hesitant when they found my husband didn't have a social security number but accepted it anyway. We then used the title to get my husband a library card at the local library, they were hesitant at first but accepted that a title was proof of address. The more you have the easier it is to get more evidence such as that.

Kttykat


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## cjcherry (Mar 8, 2012)

Leigh, how soon after you applied did you get an email? We applied two months ago, received an acknowledgement email, and haven't heard a peep since!

I'm also wondering if they actually DENIED your application, or just said "send us more evidence" as I've heard of cases of the latter.


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## kttykat (Oct 30, 2012)

cjcherry said:


> Leigh, how soon after you applied did you get an email? We applied two months ago, received an acknowledgement email, and haven't heard a peep since!
> 
> I'm also wondering if they actually DENIED your application, or just said "send us more evidence" as I've heard of cases of the latter.


Hey Cjcherry,

How long before you got an acknowledgement email? We applied to Washington on the 26th of October 2012, a few weeks ago, the only acknowledgement that we have had is that they took the money off the credit card on the same day they received the application.

Kttykat


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## abby603 (Nov 9, 2012)

cjcherry said:


> Leigh, how soon after you applied did you get an email? We applied two months ago, received an acknowledgement email, and haven't heard a peep since!
> 
> I'm also wondering if they actually DENIED your application, or just said "send us more evidence" as I've heard of cases of the latter.


This crossed my mind as well as I am in the same boat. I mailed our application for a PMV from Costa Rica to the Ottawa office on October 17th, two days later I received an email with the acknowledgement and file number and haven't heard anything ever since.


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## Leigh_ (Nov 2, 2012)

HI everyone, thanks for all the responses!

initially we submitted a lot of iteneries, government documents and bank statments proving address (same address in Australia), 2 stat decs from aust citizens that we lived with and one from my brother, also an aust citizen. 

i think we might have been a little light on with the skype and emails to each other - as we didn't want to over do it. 

we are gathering extra evidence at the moment - screen shots of skype calls to each other for everyday we were apart in the last 2.5 years. Emails that talk about us planning our future together - settling in australia, buying a house in the future etc
Bank statments that show we shared financial obligations during all the times we lived together. 

We are also going to focus on trying to show that the times we were apart in the last 2.5 years was because that my partner could no longer be in australia and work and I couldn't be in america and working, obviously we don't have the luxury of not working. 

Thanks for all the ideas everyone - they definitely didn't deny the visa, they just asked us what we wanted to do from the three options (1. submit more evidence - 2. carry on knowing it may be rejected - 3. withdraw)

I am going to email back and ask if they could provide us with some more info on what we need to prove further. 

Thanks everyone.. looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts!


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## Leigh_ (Nov 2, 2012)

cjcherry said:


> Leigh, how soon after you applied did you get an email? We applied two months ago, received an acknowledgement email, and haven't heard a peep since!
> 
> I'm also wondering if they actually DENIED your application, or just said "send us more evidence" as I've heard of cases of the latter.


We received the email just 2 days after we lodged the application. THey didn't deny the application but just gave us the options about how to proceed. They said that the initial assesment of the application doens't look like we sufficiently proved defacto status so we could send more documents or proceed with the application as it is, knowing it MAY be rejected.

I think not hearing anything is a good sign for you!


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## Nelly87 (Jul 3, 2011)

What everyone else said, basically - to Immigration the "patchy" nature of having shared your lives in person may look like it isn't serious enough. I'm sorry if it sounds harsh, but I want to be the devil's advocate here so you know the worst way it might look and can find a way to clean up the view a little  

To Immigration, the fact that you have only lived together consecutively for short periods of time and then been seperated for relatively long periods concerning the seriousness of your relationship may make them wondering if you are giving 100% to settle down in a life together. That's not to say you don't but they are looking for couples who are practically already completely settled down together. With defacto they want couples who have already fully settled down for 12 months and building a stable life in one place together. They want an indication that you aren't just preparing for the long haul, you're practically in it. 

Your reasons for having been apart are understandable and logical in the sense of preparing for a stable life, but you have to clearly explain this. Finishing your education is an important reason to not have been together consecutively for 12 months yet (if you both did not have the right to be in that place for the last 12 months or had good reason not to be) but you have to remember not all students in a relationship are not together all the time because of serious reasons. Presume yourself in the negative and explain why it's a positive. 

If I got this right this is the timeline of the last period of the relationship:
- Lived together for 6 months in Australia
- Left for the States for 3 months
- Came back to Australia for 3 months
- Left for the States for 6 months
- Lived together in the US since December 2012

I don't know if you've already done or considered this but you also might want to consider that these gaps, for all we know, could look to a fairly negative minded case officer like they were on-off periods of being fully separated as a couple. To completely bust this possibility, add the documents of what you were both actually doing that kept you apart for those few months. My partner and I lived in The Netherlands together, he went back to Australia for 3 weeks somewhere in the middle, we showed I booked his flight AND have an official statement his niece was born in those weeks and that is why he went back, not because we wanted to be apart or anything but for a serious reason and here's the proof on a silver platter.

Mortgages are not a necessity although they obviously help. Wills you can get. Get a will kit at Australia Post and make wills. Why not? We are 25 and 26 and we have wills. 

We don't have an overwhelming amount of evidence either - we were both fairly "poor" when we met and I was in student housing which did not allow the luxury of shared lease between myself (student) and a non-student. That is why we've become super creative at thinking of every possible shred of evidence to concrete the timeline we do have. In gathering our evidence, I try to spot holes in the story everywhere and make sure I already fill those holes up with whatever more materials I can think of. If you don't have a concrete house together, you gotta build one out of everything else you do have  everything counts.

Good luck! And obviously sorry to hear that the same-sex thing has gotten in your way in applying for a visa - not being allowed one in the states and not being allowed to marry here. I know everyone has their ideas and I respect that but I believe it's absolutely ridiculous, preposterous and backwards you are forced to detour every time just because you're same sex.


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## Penguina (Sep 4, 2012)

It looks like they may be giving you a chance to get more evidence together which you need to take advantage of. 
You need to provide evidence in each category of the visa.

With the requirement of living together for at least 12 months - you and your partner both need to provide statements going over the timeline of your relationship and why there was breaks in not living together and how you communicated and stayed connected through the periods of time you were apart. The more details the better, and have various documents that would show how you communicated, use a sample of emails, chats or other messages that are dated and sent.

You need to show evidence of the relationship in four different categories: Financial, nature of the household, social, and the nature of the commitment to the relationship.

They look for wills, bills for the house being in both names if possible, the house being in both names, joint bank accounts.

Print out the Partner Migration book from the Australian Immigration site. It will help you out to see what you can do to help your application as each application is unique. Partner Migration Booklet the link to the pdf of the booklet is on this page.

On pages 38 to 41 will be helpful in what they are looking for when they start the assessment to see if you have a valid application before it even goes to wait for a CO to be assigned.

Good Luck.


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## Penguina (Sep 4, 2012)

Both my partner and I are 26 and we didn't have wills or joint superannuation but you need to provide information for why and how you are dedicated to each other and what your long term intentions are this is just one part of what you need to show.


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## kttykat (Oct 30, 2012)

Yeah this is all good advice, my husband kept a receipt from when he ordered pizza here in the states at our address in his name, it is not one piece of evidence, it is the overall picture that counts.
Kttykat


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## sbjapan (Jul 19, 2010)

*Overdo it.*

Leigh,

Overdo it. I'm through the process now (Permanent Visa granted August 31st!), but as a same-gender couple, you need to be clear as a bell as to your timeline, with proof to match. We are a much older couple than you are, but I was living in Hong Kong when I got together with my Australian partner. I traveled to Australia on business a lot (I was lucky - I had a short-term business visa), and I opened a joint account with my partner three months into our relationship. I also got a QLD driver's license. We also got me on the title of her house.

So our real strength was in our financial ties, but then we had to overcome the long-distance part.

Your stat decs are crucial. You need to show DIAC that you've jumped through all sorts of hoops to be together in three different countries. You can clearly state (we did!) that it is so important for the US Citizen to get the Australian visa because you cannot be together in the United States at this time (fingers crossed that DOMA is going to be repealed in 2013!). Tell them your story, and do not stint on words. Print out your SKYPE records. Give them a sample of emails - we printed out one per month of our time together (we met two years before we became partners). If you live in an Australian state where you can register your relationship, do so.

And don't be afraid to gush a little about your partner in the stat dec, either.

Best of luck to you both!

Sukie


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## charm4444 (Oct 22, 2012)

What everyone else said ;-) and also don't forget it doesn't actually say in the IMMI booklet that you have to be living with your de facto partner for 12 months continuously. Just that you are and have been living together and have been in a committed de facto relationship for at least 12 months. I reckon more stat decs, wills, screen shots of convos, etc etc and you should be fine.


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## kttykat (Oct 30, 2012)

charm4444 said:


> What everyone else said ;-) and also don't forget it doesn't actually say in the IMMI booklet that you have to be living with your de facto partner for 12 months continuously. Just that you are and have been living together and have been in a committed de facto relationship for at least 12 months. I reckon more stat decs, wills, screen shots of convos, etc etc and you should be fine.


From the immigration web site:

"Relationship
You and your partner must have been in a de facto relationship for the entire 12 months immediately prior to lodging your application."

Partner Visa: Offshore Temporary and Permanent (Subclasses 309 and 100)

If you haven't been together you must show really good reasons why.

Kttykat


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## Penguina (Sep 4, 2012)

kttykat said:


> From the immigration web site:
> 
> "Relationship
> You and your partner must have been in a de facto relationship for the entire 12 months immediately prior to lodging your application."
> ...


Give as much detail as possible for any breaks and how you supported each other during these breaks if there are any money transfers and various things that would have been paid for each other during these breaks.

The more information you can provide the better about these periods of separation as a de facto relationship should act and work like a married couple would just without the marriage certificate.


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## kttykat (Oct 30, 2012)

Penguina said:


> Give as much detail as possible for any breaks and how you supported each other during these breaks.......


Penguina is right.

Read the following on the defacto relationship rules

Australian Immigration Fact Sheet 35. One-Year Relationship Requirement

What is the relationship requirement?

Applicants seeking to demonstrate a de facto relationship with their partner must provide evidence that for the period covering at least the twelve months before the visa application is lodged:

they had a mutual commitment to a shared life to the exclusion of all others
the relationship between them is genuine and continuing
they live together, or do not live separately and apart, on a permanent basis.
Living together

Living together is regarded as a common element in most on-going relationships. Partners who are currently not living together may be required to demonstrate a high level of proof that they are not living separately and apart on a permanent basis.

What evidence is considered?

It is important that a couple claiming a de facto relationship are able to provide evidence that:

they have a mutual commitment to a shared life to the exclusion of all others
the relationship between them is genuine and continuing
they have been living together or have not been living separately and apart on a permanent basis.
Some of the factors to be considered in deciding whether the partners satisfy the requirement include:

knowledge of each other's personal circumstances
financial aspects of the relationship, joint financial commitments such as real estate or other assets and sharing day-to-day household expenses
the nature of the household, including living arrangements and joint care and responsibility for any children of the relationship
the social aspects of the relationship, provided in statements (statutory declarations) by friends and acquaintances
the nature of the commitment, including duration of the relationship, how long the couple has been living together and whether they see the relationship as a long-term one.
Waivers

The one-year relationship requirement does not apply if the applicant can establish that there are compelling and compassionate circumstances for the grant of the visa. For example:

in the case of a de facto partner relationship where there is a child from the relationship
at the time of application of the partner visa, the de facto relationship was registered as a prescribed relationship in the relevant Australian state or territory legislation
in the case of a same-sex de facto relationship, where cohabitation was contrary to law in the applicant's country of residence.

kttykat


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## Penguina (Sep 4, 2012)

Leigh_ said:


> HI everyone, thanks for all the responses!
> 
> initially we submitted a lot of iteneries, government documents and bank statments proving address (same address in Australia), 2 stat decs from aust citizens that we lived with and one from my brother, also an aust citizen.


Try to get more statements even if they are not stat decs from family and friends that know about your relationship. This is important to help prove your relationship. Two is the bare minimum that they require. I provided 7 stat decs and two statements that were from people that were not Australian. These statements help give you additional support to having a relationship that others know about and how you and your partner interacted with those people.


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## charm4444 (Oct 22, 2012)

kttykat said:


> From the immigration web site:
> 
> "Relationship
> You and your partner must have been in a de facto relationship for the entire 12 months immediately prior to lodging your application."
> ...


Yup, 'de facto relationship' means 'like a marriage relationship' as I said, after checking with the UK embassy, it doesn't mean you have to be living together continuously for a year. They understand periods of separation in this time if you have and are living together and if you show there was good reason and you kept up your communication during that time.


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## Leigh_ (Nov 2, 2012)

charm4444 said:


> What everyone else said ;-) and also don't forget it doesn't actually say in the IMMI booklet that you have to be living with your de facto partner for 12 months continuously. Just that you are and have been living together and have been in a committed de facto relationship for at least 12 months. I reckon more stat decs, wills, screen shots of convos, etc etc and you should be fine.


Thats how i read the requirements too! Thanks for your support!


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## Leigh_ (Nov 2, 2012)

Thanks again for the responses everyone!

The way I understood the booklet was that like Charm4444 said - been continuously in a de facto relationship for the entire 12 months prior to applying AND have lived together for at least 12 months. 

We have lived together for 18 months in the last 2.5 years and the relationship has been genuine, continuing and to the exclusion of all others for the entire duration. 

Some of the evidence we are compiling includes showing those periods we were apart were only temporary - for example when my partner left Australia for 3 months to attend university classes, she had already booked a flight back to Australia before she even left. 

When we were apart for 6 month I have email records of applying for an american working visa and insurance and flights - basically the process of trying to get to america to be with her. 

We have records of me transferring her over $1000 
Screenshots of our skype record which shows us talking for over an hour everyday we were apart
We have a statement on our situation - where she used her 12 month working visa for australia and i had to wait until i had graduated to even be able to access any sort of american working visa (the only option i had was a new graduates work experience visa)

We are also getting more statements from friends and family
Printing more emails - specifically ones that mention us wanting to marry when it's possible, wanting to purchase property together eventually in Sydney and wanting children together.

Thanks again for everyone's replies, it's so nice to be able to hear from people who have already gone through, or are in the process. 

Kind Regards, 
Leigh!


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## charm4444 (Oct 22, 2012)

It sounds to me like you just need more evidence in support of your situation. Not that your situation is the problem. We are in similar situation in That we have had a period of one month, then later one of two months of separation in that twelve months but I called the UK aus high commission helpline and they said its not necessarily a problem if you can prove good reason for that separation, which it seems you have, and prove you we're constantly in contact with each other during those periods of separation..... just compile as much evidence as physically possible... Loads of these posts show applications of like 1KG of paper evidence. After all De Facto relationship just means 'like married relationship' and they understand that long distance relationships can be logistically tricky and mean periods of separation can be inevitable. 

Best of luck luv. Let us know how it goes. These beurocratic hurdles are the devils work... All we want is to be with our loved ones!! ;-) x


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## kttykat (Oct 30, 2012)

charm4444 said:


> It sounds to me like you just need more evidence in support of your situation. Not that your situation is the problem. We are in similar situation in That we have had a period of one month, then later one of two months of separation in that twelve months but I called the UK aus high commission helpline and they said its not necessarily a problem if you can prove good reason for that separation, which it seems you have, and prove you we're constantly in contact with each other during those periods of separation..... just compile as much evidence as physically possible... Loads of these posts show applications of like 1KG of paper evidence. After all De Facto relationship just means 'like married relationship' and they understand that long distance relationships can be logistically tricky and mean periods of separation can be inevitable.
> 
> Best of luck luv. Let us know how it goes. These beurocratic hurdles are the devils work... All we want is to be with our loved ones!! ;-) x


Hey Charm,

We are married and with forms and evidence at the last count we had submitted over 7 pounds of evidence that equates to over 3kgs  still haven't had even an acknowledgement from Washington, just the money out of our credit card.
Kttykat


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## charm4444 (Oct 22, 2012)

There u go 3kg!!! Aim for it to weigh as much as a large baby. Lol. X


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## holly (Dec 11, 2011)

Ours was 1.8kg we had been together for 15 months when we applied and had had 2 x 2 weeks separation while i was on preplanned holidays, used facebook and text messages to show contact. Then we had another 6 weeks separation about halfway through due to his visa. This time we had evidence of his taking my credit card with him to use in france plus skype, return tickets fb etc and i also went over and we flew home together.
We got approved in 2 weeks so being apart shouldn't be too bad if you can show you were still together. 
U can do wills online for free and get good stat decs. We ended up writing 3 statements. One form me, one from him, and one from both that outlined our history of relationship, with key events and dates bolded and photos and other evidence attached to back the timeline up.


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## kttykat (Oct 30, 2012)

holly said:


> Ours was 1.8kg we had been together for 15 months when we applied and had had 2 x 2 weeks separation while i was on preplanned holidays, used facebook and text messages to show contact. Then we had another 6 weeks separation about halfway through due to his visa. This time we had evidence of his taking my credit card with him to use in france plus skype, return tickets fb etc and i also went over and we flew home together.
> We got approved in 2 weeks so being apart shouldn't be too bad if you can show you were still together.
> U can do wills online for free and get good stat decs. We ended up writing 3 statements. One form me, one from him, and one from both that outlined our history of relationship, with key events and dates bolded and photos and other evidence attached to back the timeline up.


Hey Holly,
Approved in 2 weeks!!! wow. Was that onshore or offshore? We are married and submitted 7 pounds of documentation and it has taken them 3 weeks just to acknowledge our application, the acknowledgement email came today  The good news is they told us we now have a case officer too  on the phone they said that could take 4 months just to acknowledge that we had applied.

In the notification which was a form letter style thing, they asked us to get the FBI & police checks and organise a medical if we hadn't already done so. The medical arrived at the embassy yesterday and the police/FBI stuff went in with the application. They do have all they need to make a decision, so I hope it goes quickly but they are still saying 5 months to a year 

Kttykat


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## holly (Dec 11, 2011)

Hey kttykat we were onshore and submitted it decision ready (ie w medicals and police checks) i expected 9-12 but we got very very lucky, i they do seem to take longer offshore unfortunately


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## Kyconn (May 10, 2013)

Hello,

Has anyone had any experience with applying for partner visas at the Ottawa office recently? 
I am Canadian and my Australian parter and I applied 2.5 weeks ago. We haven't heard anything yet, haven't even received a confirmation recognition e-mail but they have charged my credit card. 
Just wondering if anyone else is dealing with them right now too or recently have. Would love to hear other situations!

Thanks!

K


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## Aussieboy07 (Jan 4, 2013)

I am glad I am not the postman that has the embassy run, 3 kilos wow

I think it would go a long way if you could get supporting letters (stat decs) from both of your parents


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## Nelly87 (Jul 3, 2011)

Kyconn said:


> Hello,
> 
> Has anyone had any experience with applying for partner visas at the Ottawa office recently?
> I am Canadian and my Australian parter and I applied 2.5 weeks ago. We haven't heard anything yet, haven't even received a confirmation recognition e-mail but they have charged my credit card.
> ...


I think you would get more/better replies in a thread specifically this subject. Search if there is a relevant thread already, if not I suggest you make one.


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