# Secret Blacklist of immigration lawyers



## Xyzaus (Jun 17, 2013)

Secret blacklist of immigration lawyers


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## Marcantony (Sep 1, 2010)

Yeah I just saw this on the news myself.



> A secret blacklist of lawyers and migration agents compiled by the Department of Immigration has been discovered, sparking outrage about the ''vindictiveness'' of the department and calls for an immediate inquiry.
> 
> The list of so-called ''agents of concern'' names 30 lawyers and migration agents around the country who have been deemed to be ''high risk'' or of concern by the department, leading to greater scrutiny of their applications for clients seeking partner visas.
> 
> Some of the lawyers and agents on the covert ''Agents of Concern List A and List B'' have been in business for decades and more than three-quarters of them have never had any official sanction against them


Kind of scary for anyone using a migration agent.


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## Xyzaus (Jun 17, 2013)

http://images.smh.com.au/file/2014/05/04/5398644/FOI%20publish%20(1).pdf?rand=1399150501064


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## Xyzaus (Jun 17, 2013)

Marcantony said:


> Yeah I just saw this on the news myself.
> 
> Kind of scary for anyone using a migration agent.


Not only that. But the article tell us a bit about the process ie. how application are allocated to case officers.


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

I would love to see the list! I'd be willing to bet that the majority of those on the list (if not all) were on there for a reason - i.e., a high number of cases submitted that were later determined to be fraudulent. That's sheer speculation, though, without seeing the actual list, and nothing says there can't be an agent or two on there in error.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

They keep secret list of countries that get special treatment, they have a secret dictionary that only they can see the meaning of, they have many secret things!

It is about time the immigration department get some heat, while they do need some transparency - they currently operate in invisible mode and no-one stands up to them. Now the boats have stopped I personally hope they start a cull from the top down. With waiting times of partner visa's as they are 12 months, our very educated unemployed and the cost of visa's - there should almost no waiting certainly NO LONGER than it takes an agent to prepare a submission.

An approved by DIABP Migration Agent should be able to say your application will be approved pending that no forged/false documents have been given to them by the applicant.

Just my thoughts. lol


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

Here's the thing - if every criterion they used for determining if a case was legitimate or fraudulent was made public, it would be a thousand times easier for fraudsters to craft fraudulent cases. Frankly, I think there are some things that NEED to stay for DIBP's eyes only. (Not saying this list in particular is one of them... just that some things do). 

As to processing times, frankly I think the current government administration and their budget cuts are MUCH more to blame for that... every time the budget needs cutting, Immigration gets hit HARD and they have to make COs worldwide redundant. How can you shorten processing times with so few employees? You can't. You have to have money to be able to hire MORE if you want processing times to go down. 

JMO.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Exactly my point CG.

If an approved agent (then effectively a paid by user contractor) has all relevant information to comply with application requirements. (obviously they already spend large resources checking agent to have a list spanning 3+years) 

Then the only main task left is to check for forged documents and call some or all of the people that supplied form 888 say 8 calls @ 30 mins each call.

If then an application took more than a week I would be surprised. Cases processed in a week x cost of employment (even in Australia) would leave a very tidy profit.


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## cozimhappy (Apr 8, 2014)

I'm very unhappy about the article because I'm using an agent . I know my agent comes highly recommended and has been around a long time but going by article that doesn't seem to matter. DIBP would have a massive fight on its hands if it is found to be treating us with bias for no valid reason! This whole process is difficult enough without now having the concern that our application could be denied on a whim. Cozimhappy is now cozimNOThappy!!!


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## CollegeGirl (Nov 10, 2012)

FWIW, if you read the documents linked here, the "agent blacklist" didn't (at least they claim it didn't) affect the decision-making process. It only affected whether your case was assigned to a junior or senior CO. So... I don't know that it necessarily meant it underwent extra scrutiny.. merely that someone more senior was looking at it. At least, that's what is claimed in those emails.


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## Dinkum (Jan 5, 2014)

*The blacklist*

A few details have become clearer today - 1. The list is no longer being used. 2. The list was used since 2010 as a workload sorting tool to send higher risk cases to more senior case officers. The case officer was not informed about the sorting, and DIBP says it did not affect any decision. 
I tend to believe them, though any sort of secret list is a worry. Let's hope it has been finished with for ever after the media discovered it.



cozimhappy said:


> I'm very unhappy about the article because I'm using an agent . I know my agent comes highly recommended and has been around a long time but going by article that doesn't seem to matter. DIBP would have a massive fight on its hands if it is found to be treating us with bias for no valid reason! This whole process is difficult enough without now having the concern that our application could be denied on a whim. Cozimhappy is now cozimNOThappy!!!


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## Xyzaus (Jun 17, 2013)

CollegeGirl said:


> Here's the thing - if every criterion they used for determining if a case was legitimate or fraudulent was made public, it would be a thousand times easier for fraudsters to craft fraudulent cases. Frankly, I think there are some things that NEED to stay for DIBP's eyes only. (Not saying this list in particular is one of them... just that some things do).
> 
> As to processing times, frankly I think the current government administration and their budget cuts are MUCH more to blame for that... every time the budget needs cutting, Immigration gets hit HARD and they have to make COs worldwide redundant. How can you shorten processing times with so few employees? You can't. You have to have money to be able to hire MORE if you want processing times to go down.
> 
> JMO.


Sorry CG. But I have to disagree. I believe the whole process needs to be disclosed and we need transparency.

I think transparency wouldn't increase the number of fraudulent applications but would benefit those who are applying and trying to comply with all the legislation. I believe (I can be wrong) that 99% of people posting on this forum are genuine and all we can do now is try to understand the process by example (what the couple n1 filed on their application to be successful and what the couple n2 didn't and ended with an unsuccessful application - even so, very confusing).


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## Xyzaus (Jun 17, 2013)

CollegeGirl said:


> FWIW, if you read the documents linked here, the "agent blacklist" didn't (at least they claim it didn't) affect the decision-making process. It only affected whether your case was assigned to a junior or senior CO. So... I don't know that it necessarily meant it underwent extra scrutiny.. merely that someone more senior was looking at it. At least, that's what is claimed in those emails.


That's what the emails say but I'm not very convinced ie. border security.

Even when they find someone in breach of their visa conditions they don't deport them immediately even if it's enough reason.


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## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

I don't know how much more transparency can be given. There are regulations and guidelines, but then each application is going to be unique and subject to a CO's review and opinion on the information provided. Unfortunately that means that CO #1 may be convinced about the evidence, while CO #2 may not. Once you introduce subjectivity into any process, it's going to result in people feeling they've been treated unfairly if they don't get the decision they hoped for.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

CollegeGirl said:


> I would love to see the list! I'd be willing to bet that the majority of those on the list (if not all) were on there for a reason - i.e., a high number of cases submitted that were later determined to be fraudulent. That's sheer speculation, though, without seeing the actual list, and nothing says there can't be an agent or two on there in error.


I agree CollegeGirl, from some of the posting on this forum it is obvious some applicants seem to believe that they can speed up or circumvent the process through "shortcuts" by hiring the "right" agent. Maybe there are some agents who are not as honest and forthright as the stalwarts who help out here.


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## TaniaTM (Feb 26, 2014)

Agent or no agent, in the end, the Partner visa processing time is as dubious as it could be without the process transparency visibility. I don't really buy the entire explanation given of the list not being used for assessment because if it wasn't why else was it still in use and the instruction of it to be destroyed later? This point was the most alarming to me.


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## Mish (Jan 13, 2013)

CollegeGirl said:


> As to processing times, frankly I think the current government administration and their budget cuts are MUCH more to blame for that... every time the budget needs cutting, Immigration gets hit HARD and they have to make COs worldwide redundant. How can you shorten processing times with so few employees? You can't. You have to have money to be able to hire MORE if you want processing times to go down.
> 
> JMO.


Unfortunately it is not just immigration that gets hard too . I work for a government department and we have lost alot of staff and they say there will be still more to go after the next budget comes out .

There are barely any jobs available in the government they have to utilise the staff within the APS before going to non-APS staff.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

Mish said:


> Unfortunately it is not just immigration that gets hard too . I work for a government department and we have lost alot of staff and they say there will be still more to go after the next budget comes out .
> 
> There are barely any jobs available in the government they have to utilise the staff within the APS before going to non-APS staff.


I know how you feel Mish, i too work for the Government ( not Immigration)and we also have the same amount of work to do with fewer staff.
The word around is we will see a increase in all fees and charges so I think we will see a substantial increase in user pay services such as visas and passports.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Destroy is the key repeated word - what possible reason is there, for such a document held within their own department to be removed from records with no trace?

There needs more transparency in the processing - The Department publish a very simple definition of "family" yet a Case Officer A will not accept that parents are family. Senior Case Officer B will review Case Officer A then tell the applicants sponsor over phone only that "In general we do not accept parents as family members". Neither Case Officers are compliant with department on legislation & applicant refused visa.

Dam right they need to explain these Very Secret processes of how our applications are processed.


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## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

I'm not at all surprised there is a list of agents to watch. With the amount of bogus applications that must be submitted, it's only natural that there are agents who would support this process. So assigning more senior COs to these agents would ensure they get a more experienced review vs. a junior CO.


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## Maggie-May24 (Jul 24, 2011)

ampk said:


> There needs more transparency in the processing - The Department publish a very simple definition of "family" yet a Case Officer A will not accept that parents are family. Senior Case Officer B will review Case Officer A then tell the applicants sponsor over phone only that "In general we do not accept parents as family members". Neither Case Officers are compliant with department on legislation & applicant refused visa.


Of course parents are family. However proving they are fully dependent is an issue when there are countries that provide welfare benefits, there may be pension or other income, etc.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Hi Maggi,

PAM3 Used to process the application - Incentives to return home.

"does the applicant have more family members in home country than Australia?"


Your call but definition of family is clear - And a fairly hard thing for citizens from a single child policy country to comply with.

I think I also stated "generally not accepted" (the senior secretary's words) pretty dam grey or BLACK if you use a listed agent!

Words Generally and Destroy, don't fit with words like Transparent (Procedural) and Consistent.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

ampk said:


> Hi Maggi,
> 
> PAM3 Used to process the application - Incentives to return home.
> 
> ...


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Hi Aussie steve,

In that instance I was referring to a visitor visa.

You will then be aware of the other listed criteria for reasons to return (all meet including property ownership claimed not to be seen) point listed and documents supplied.

There is also the list of reasons not to return, addressed as not applicable.

"Generally not accepted" was a verbal only response not a written statement.

My favourite written reason they have to refuse a visa is "for any other reason"


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

I have been wondering how much time they actually spend on our applications.

"We have given the tool a test drive in the Sydney team, and the staff
who have used it have indicated that it is easy to use, and takes around
5 minutes per case (1.6% of our total allocated minutes). This is a good
investment I feel in the subsequent return," ---------------Secret information--------

Therefore each case Total Allocated Time is 5.2 hours.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

ampk said:


> Hi Aussie steve,
> 
> In that instance I was referring to a visitor visa.
> 
> ...


Hi Ampk 
I know all about visitor visas, my wife and I had to pay $30,000 security for her brother, sister in law and niece to come and visit us, yet when her older sister and her husband came and visited on 2 separate occasions we paid nothing! 
The reason being they were older and owned a lot of land.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

ampk said:


> I have been wondering how much time they actually spend on our applications.
> 
> "We have given the tool a test drive in the Sydney team, and the staff
> who have used it have indicated that it is easy to use, and takes around
> ...


Hi Ampk
I would be very wary of any so called "secret information" the reason it is secret is usually because it is erroneous at best.
To suggest that they can fully process an application in 5 minutes beggars belief.


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## Dinkum (Jan 5, 2014)

*Simple maths*

Hi Ampk - Not sure where and how you got this information. But thanks for doing the maths for us all. If the info is correct it looks like a bit over 5 hours is the generally accepted processing time. Cheers and thanks again.



ampk said:


> I have been wondering how much time they actually spend on our applications.
> 
> "We have given the tool a test drive in the Sydney team, and the staff
> who have used it have indicated that it is easy to use, and takes around
> ...


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

The post I did was from another site that had a link to the entire released under freedom of information.

The emails in this thread are only part of it.

I Googled blacklisted immigration agent (from memory) is the second link on first page. (if anyone wants to see it I could find it again and post link.)

Other than the 5 mins paragraph (that I read as time to fill out the blacklist form, not the entire application. Only takes an extra 5 minutes on each case.) Most other stuff is not of much interest - It is clear that this system was recently used (recent as in applications in process longer than 6 months could be in the cases now with concerns.) The reality is it has be pulled very fast and recently, I would go as far as saying files in some Embassies will still have the form on the cover yet to be destroyed.

The allocated time of 5.2 hours is what I would expect. (I just don't like the wait of 9-12-18-24 months for the 5 hours to be done). As an explanation for this I will state what is more transparent. Many agents offer a service to review your application before it is lodged and supply you with a written report of recommendations that are often again reviewed. Some of these agents include the cost of this service on their web sites. They read every document, check photos, every thing you supply (I am sure they will have seen enough docs to spot a fake doc too) it is as much or more than the case office can do. Now do the math on the cost they charge to what you think is a fair hourly rate to pay an approved agent, just remember if you get you car serviced by say Toyota the rate is about $150 per hour.

Lets now see what a Case Officer looks at.

Applicant and sponsor form - Several good this to look at here.

Form 888 - People chosen mostly by the sponsor, being mostly friends and family writing in there version how our relationship will never work out and that we should not get the visa because we plan to just live on the welfare system.

Form 80 - nothing that is not elsewhere except an extra 20 yrs of guessed addresses and travel history.

Photos - Unless they are naked not a second glance.

Applicant and sponsor letters - Might be interesting.

Now lets see the rest of the documents, do they tick all the boxes required for this application if with kids or medical after TB.

The fact is after see you first 100 or 1000 visa applications, most stuff supplied is glanced over and only the relevant parts are actually read, the rest is just that meet in person proof photo, that's a Noim, that's citizenship etc. Working of mostly copies of official documents only obvious fakes would be detected.

Things I think a Case Office would/should have interest in are - repetitive names, addresses, email addresses, places of employment,writing styles and formats of letters on different applications. Maybe why there was a Blacklist? or why one is needed and published ( Hey you can get a signed 888 from ** for $100 each just tell him details xxx and collect them the next day, oh I used agent so and so).

In the end we just wait lonely, reading forums and writing long waffling stuff on them. lol.


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

ampk said:


> The post I did was from another site that had a link to the entire released under freedom of information.
> 
> The emails in this thread are only part of it.
> 
> ...


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## Star Hunter (Jun 29, 2012)

Mish said:


> Unfortunately it is not just immigration that gets hard too . I work for a government department and we have lost alot of staff and they say there will be still more to go after the next budget comes out .
> 
> There are barely any jobs available in the government they have to utilise the staff within the APS before going to non-APS staff.


Yep! And let's not forget the health sector! I hate complaining too much, because I love what I do, but sometimes the bed to nurse ratio is insane! It only gets worse with budget cuts, because while the actual nurse to bed ratio isn't changed, the number of beds has reduced so patients are pushed out the door quicker - that means beds are always taken, wards are always full and patient treatment and assessments are having to be done in half the time as a decade ago. On the postnatal ward, midwives are still required to check off all the "government health initiative guidelines" but, instead of having 4-5 days, we get 2-3 days to have all the outcomes checked off....for every new mum. Add in a patient with complex needs and routine patient care gets thrown by the wayside. It drives me crazy because I chose midwifery so I could be "with woman" (what the word "midwifery" actually translates to) not so I can feel so rushed I essentially am forced to neglect the emotional needs of the women.

Bugbear of mine! Off my soapbox now.


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

Aussiesteve - At NO stage have I said it takes 5 mins to process an application!!!!!!!

It takes 5 minutes to fill the *Blacklist Form * only.

This form is as stated fixed to the front of the file (it now has compared to other case files a visual identifying appearance).

Only certain Case Officers are allowed to process these files - It must be known by the staff the requirement of the form, it is a flag and flags get special treatment. (light grey is black!)

Again I will explain the 5 minutes - The office clerk receives mail, it contains your application. She checks in your application (in what area we know) the name of agent used by you, enters the agent name in computer - Bang a Flag, files the Black List form out, staples it to the front of a folder, puts your application in that folder, assigns it to a senior Case Officer....... This is the 5 minute task......

Then in usual government style, the person implementing this form explains to seems a senior - How great it is, What return it brings, and in this case *1.6% of total case time. *

Or the other option it could be is it takes the Case Officer 5 mins to destroy the document? And the admin person's time is not included, in this scenario the admin person would need to do many hours of processing before assigning it to a Case Officer to be much higher than 5.2 hours.

DIBP's List A and List B of migration agents no longer in use - Immigration Daily News - Migration Alliance


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

ampk said:


> Aussiesteve - At NO stage have I said it takes 5 mins to process an application!!!!!!!
> 
> It takes 5 minutes to fill the Blacklist Form only.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification Ampk, i was obviously confused by your reasoning.
The fact is love it or hate it the system is the system , roiling against it may make you feel better but in the end it will have little if any effect.
What we all should be concerned about is the almost certain increase in the already high fees for any type of visa under the extension of the user pay philosophy.


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## MarkNortham (Dec 19, 2012)

Hi All -

From what I'm hearing, the main agents on this list (I haven't seen the list) are agents who had consistently lodged high numbers of weak or bogus partner visa applications. The blacklist was used in the partner visa risk-tiering process to decide whether an application would get a "soft touch" (not as much scrutiny) or otherwise.

Best,

Mark Northam


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## aussiesteve (Mar 16, 2012)

MarkNortham said:


> Hi All -
> 
> From what I'm hearing, the main agents on this list (I haven't seen the list) are agents who had consistently lodged high numbers of weak or bogus partner visa applications. The blacklist was used in the partner visa risk-tiering process to decide whether an application would get a "soft touch" (not as much scrutiny) or otherwise.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info Mark, it certainly makes sense!


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## ampk (Sep 21, 2013)

In all honesty I think it is a great tool to use.

But it was never approved to be used. It appears has not been evaluated for Pro's, Con's or Legality properly and become part of the Departments list.

Yes Mark, that was my thought on it, and appropriate action I.A.W the procedure for intergovernmental Departments (DBPI and MARA).

_Registration of agents in Australia
In Australia, migration agents must be registered with the Office of the Migration Agents Registration Authority (MARA). If you choose to use a migration agent, you should use a registered migration agent.

Registration gives you protection and helps ensure people working as migration agents are aware of current laws and procedures and give correct advice._

Note - On the MARA web page is an approved Blacklist! 
*Caution
*Barred
*Cancelled (This I think is routine say membership not renewed)

Every person that follows the Immigration Department procedure for picking an agent in Australia should know if that agent has been cautioned. It is natural to assume, that if the agent is not listed as Barred or Cautioned they are considered reputable by Immigration.

The mistaken release of Blacklist A & B proves this is not true.

- If an application when processed is marginal - shall I approve it??
Yes (I can justify it) *or *No (I can justify it).

You have a 50-50 chance.

Now stick a red flag on its cover. (it now has Justification from the Department, something in this application *maybe* bogus its from the bad list). "quote" it has no influence on the decision.

Platinum List - lol, find me any interdepartmental correspondence prior to the date of the accidently sent email containing the Blacklists - A very positive name for it I must say.

Mish, I have no problem with cost recovery (+ a bit) over $800 per hour It tend to expect fast, efficient service.


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